Well I was thinking today, why hasn't anybody tried to put a 105mm gun on a Bradley? It seems like a more stable and cost effective solution than building an entirely new platform like the Stryker, or is it just the need for a faster, stealthier vehicle?
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105mm Bradley, why not?
Shift911
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:53 AM UTC
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 07:50 AM UTC
Basically, there is no need for a Bradley with a 105mm gun. The Strykers are designed to be lighter, quicker, and more quickly deployable by air. They serve a different role than a Bradley, which is designed to fight heavier armored vehicles on an open battlefield. The M1028 Stryker MGS allows the Stryker scout sections to have a bit of an anti-tank capability in case they need it. It is not designed to fight other tanks in a piched battle. Bradleys always fight task organized with Abrams, so they don't need a bigger gun.Plus, their 25mm chain gun will defeat most armor up to a main battle tank.
Cuhail
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 08:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Basically, there is no need for a Bradley with a 105mm gun. The Strykers are designed to be lighter, quicker, and more quickly deployable by air. They serve a different role than a Bradley, which is designed to fight heavier armored vehicles on an open battlefield. The M1028 Stryker MGS allows the Stryker scout sections to have a bit of an anti-tank capability in case they need it. It is not designed to fight other tanks in a piched battle. Bradleys always fight task organized with Abrams, so they don't need a bigger gun.Plus, their 25mm chain gun will defeat most armor up to a main battle tank.
That was a really good explaination, Gino. I'm glad you're here to answer questions just like that one with experience and intelligence and in laymans terms so we "get it" the very first time.
Right on. I just learned something!
Cuhail
Sudzonic
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:15 AM UTC
You could build one for the WHAT IF campaign if its a go?
mikeo
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:20 AM UTC
Is the 105mm Stryker the replacement for the M8 light tank?
jjumbo
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is the 105mm Stryker the replacement for the M8 light tank?
Hey Mike,
That's a yes according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8-AGS
Cheers
jjumbo
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 10:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Basically, there is no need for a Bradley with a 105mm gun. The Strykers are designed to be lighter, quicker, and more quickly deployable by air. They serve a different role than a Bradley, which is designed to fight heavier armored vehicles on an open battlefield. The M1028 Stryker MGS allows the Stryker scout sections to have a bit of an anti-tank capability in case they need it. It is not designed to fight other tanks in a piched battle. Bradleys always fight task organized with Abrams, so they don't need a bigger gun.Plus, their 25mm chain gun will defeat most armor up to a main battle tank.
Gino,
Actually the M1128 was developed to provide support to the centerpiece of the SBCT, the Infantryman. The Stryker AT is the tank killer of the SBCT. The M1128 is used to create breaches in walls & builds as well as provide large caliber (105mm HEAT, HEP. & Canister/Beehive) direct fire support for assaults. There are three MGS per Infantry Company, for a total of 27 in a SBCT. If the Scouts are needing protection, then the SBCT’s AT company should be able to provide cover out to 3750 meters (with a 15 second time of flight, BTW) with a TOW-IIB.
Having said all of that, the MGS's M68E4 cannon can fire all of the 105mm APFSDS-T rounds including the 105mm M900 "Silver Bullet". The largest issue with the M900 round is that the propellant in the M900 round tends to erode the lands and grooves in the guntube at an accelerated rate, either 2x or 4x what the other 105 rounds do to the tube - much like firing repeated red bags from a howitzer.
When I was at Ft Knox in 2000-2002, I was working on a concept to "heavy up" 2d ACR (L) with Strykers replacing the vintage HWMMVs and improving some of the Regiment's processes with concepts & efficiencies learned from the SBCT work. We, at Ft Knox's Directorate of Force Development, were proposing to use the MGS to provide direct fire support to the scouts of the ACR, much like how tanks and Brads work in the 3d ACR. The design was approved in late 2002 however the need for Stryker BCTs in the COIN environment of Iraq overwhelmed the need to convert the 2nd ACR(L) into a Stryker Cavalry Regiment and thus the 2nd Cavalry Regiment became a SBCT...
As for the M1128 being the replacement for the M8 Armored Gun System well, yea, sorta, maybe in principle... The 2 ACR was supposed to transition from HWMMVs (M1025s and M1043 TOW) in the mid to late 90's to a M8 & M113A3 vehicle mix. This was quashed when the M8 was cancelled in order to pay for M6 Linebacker Turrets as well as costs incurred by the 1st Armored Division in Bosnia. Both the 82nd Airborne (3-73 Armor deactivated - M8 was to replace their Sheridans) and the 2nd ACR lost out when the AGS went the way of the Dodo. There are several M8s still around - I had heard that the 82nd AB had them but that might have been a rumor...
FWIW
John
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 12:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
much like firing repeated red bags from a howitzer.
John
John, no one can question your credentials on the MGS, but your artillery knowledge may be getting a bit rusty.
Charge 7 white bag is thenbig eroder, even though for tube life calculations I believe anything past a charge 4 counts as a full charge. The red you refer to is the igniter pad sewn into both the white and green bags.
BTW, message received, item ready.
Cheers.
Tankrider
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 02:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textmuch like firing repeated red bags from a howitzer.
John
John, no one can question your credentials on the MGS, but your artillery knowledge may be getting a bit rusty.
Charge 7 white bag is thenbig eroder, even though for tube life calculations I believe anything past a charge 4 counts as a full charge. The red you refer to is the igniter pad sewn into both the white and green bags.
BTW, message received, item ready.
Cheers.
White 4/18 Bravo,
All I know about artillery is that it uses gravity to make the projo land, much like Airborne troopers... Most of the time the round lands someplace other than where I wanted it to and it was normally my fault!!! I guess that I am mixing up my bag colors, must have skipped that gunnery class in Snow Hall... Point taken. Will be standing by for the shipment of the BUIS, even though I am not sure when I will use it in the immediate future.
John
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 06:27 PM UTC
John's not totally wrong, Charge Super 8 is called red bag, even though it isn't red. It's more of a cardboard tube charge, like a big tootsie roll.
I always do mess up the AT role and MGS role of the Strykers. I think I would prefer the MGS in the AT role though. TOW just takes too long to sit a there for 13 sec. and be exposed. 13 sec. seems liek a really long time when people are shooting at you.
I always do mess up the AT role and MGS role of the Strykers. I think I would prefer the MGS in the AT role though. TOW just takes too long to sit a there for 13 sec. and be exposed. 13 sec. seems liek a really long time when people are shooting at you.
Ric_Cody
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 05:16 AM UTC
It would be nice if they could go with a Hell Fire on the Bradley to replace the TOW system. Or even if they made a fire and forget missle so you could fire on 2 targets almost simultaneously. I know I have been caught off guard by how long it takes the TOW to fly max range. My gunners comment was "it had to stop to refuel" I about fell out of the turret.
Ric
Ric
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:00 AM UTC
It was called "red bag charge 8" when I was a field steamie on 109's. That being said, I never once saw it fired! Far more fun was charge 1 illum missions, then we got to try and burn down the training area by lighting 500 lbs of propellent on fire!
Tankrider
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"it had to stop to refuel" I about fell out of the turret.
Ric
I almost fell out of my chair laughing... Stopping to refuel, great line. Hellfires, combined with a 35mm chain gun or a 40mm Bofors on a Brad would be nice. I profess to know little about artillery and what goes on inside of a howitzer, despite working at Ft Sill. I am glad that there are those out there that will correct my mistakes with the "real deal."
As for the roles and missions of the MGS and AT Strykers, I would have confused them also if I did not spend two years trying to convince folks that the MGS could be used for more than knocking holes in buildings and walls. There is still potential but IMHO, FCS will suck the life out of future vehicle and unit development for a long while...
Now, burning charges... That is an attention getter to the uninformed around 0200 in the morning at Graf... I had thought that someone's vehicle went up and we were going to need the medevacs and fire department. Good thing that I came to my senses before I called that in over the Battalion net.
John
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Basically, there is no need for a Bradley with a 105mm gun. The Strykers are designed to be lighter, quicker, and more quickly deployable by air. They serve a different role than a Bradley, which is designed to fight heavier armored vehicles on an open battlefield. The M1028 Stryker MGS allows the Stryker scout sections to have a bit of an anti-tank capability in case they need it. It is not designed to fight other tanks in a piched battle. Bradleys always fight task organized with Abrams, so they don't need a bigger gun.Plus, their 25mm chain gun will defeat most armor up to a main battle tank.
another problem with the Bradley is that the drive train can't handle much more weight. The transmission right now is taxed to about 80%, and really needs to be better than that.(closer to 50% for reliability). It won't take anymore horsepower than it's using right now without more issues. These problems go right back to the GAO backdooring TACOM in the procurement process. TACOM wanted to ditch the current drive train for something heftier and capable of handeling more horsepower. That particualr powerpack is still sitiing on the shelf after 15 years (if not longer); as I saw it last Christmass.
gary
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextIs the 105mm Stryker the replacement for the M8 light tank?
Hey Mike,
That's a yes according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8-AGS
Cheers
jjumbo
there's an on again/off again light tank project that uses a very similar drive train to what the Striker uses right now, but with a very different "drop box" configuration. The engine is deisel and looks tobe in the 500 horse power range (maybe alittle more). This feeds somekind of a variable hydrostatic outboard drive (so I'm told). The Sweds used a very similar setup, but without the hydrostatic setup in one of their tanks a few years back. There's also another tank project that uses a much heavier drivetrain ; yet similar to the current one in the M113's (Allison X200). Whatkind of engine; I don't know. But we built a few of them for TACOM. There's a whole series of "X" transmissions for tracks, and all of them are hydrostatic drives and four or five speeds.
gary
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 08:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textmuch like firing repeated red bags from a howitzer.
John
John, no one can question your credentials on the MGS, but your artillery knowledge may be getting a bit rusty.
Charge 7 white bag is thenbig eroder, even though for tube life calculations I believe anything past a charge 4 counts as a full charge. The red you refer to is the igniter pad sewn into both the white and green bags.
BTW, message received, item ready.
Cheers.
If I remember right and working with a factor of 10,000; a charge seven white bag is counted as a one (number) towards the 10,000 number. A charge five green bag (once again if I remember right) was a point three. I think the minimum charge white bag was similar (maybe a point four). But there's more to this quagmire. When the magic 2500 number was reached the bore was scoped, and have seen them changed at 2500. The next check would be around 5,000, and so on. Every barrel was changed at 10K no matter what. In this cycle (barrel life) you would eat up about five breech assemblies, and maybe a half dozen recoil assemblies if you shot "hot" a lot (not always a charge seven, but with the barrel very hot). If you had over 5K and went for a new recoil system and breech they almost always changed the barrel out too. (about an eight hour project). I've seen 155 barrels glow in the dark!
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 08:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It was called "red bag charge 8" when I was a field steamie on 109's. That being said, I never once saw it fired! Far more fun was charge 1 illum missions, then we got to try and burn down the training area by lighting 500 lbs of propellent on fire!
try WP in front of a charge one and a second and a half time fuse! Barrel's at a negative three degrees. I never shot a super charge eight either, but have heard they tend to eat gun carriages up on a regular basis.
gary
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 08:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
John's not totally wrong, Charge Super 8 is called red bag, even though it isn't red. It's more of a cardboard tube charge, like a big tootsie roll.
I always do mess up the AT role and MGS role of the Strykers. I think I would prefer the MGS in the AT role though. TOW just takes too long to sit a there for 13 sec. and be exposed. 13 sec. seems liek a really long time when people are shooting at you.
taking your post and knowing just how quickly a modern tank can aquire a target; it sorta makes my hair standup!
gary
Fitz
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:11 PM UTC
Because there has been no requirement for it.
Stryker was built to a very different set of requirements than the Bradley and is used in a different way. A key requirement for Stryker for example was that it be air-transportable in a C-130. The Bradley can't do that. In its infantry carrier version it also can not carry a full 9-man infantry dismount squad. Because of these and other limitations of the Bradley chassis as regards the Stryker requirements the then United Defense did not even submit a version of the Bradley for the Stryker requirement, instead submitting a combination of the M113A3 and M8 AGS. And there lies the rub. The M8 AGS exists, has been type-classified and would be better than any possible 105mm armed Bradley. In the heavy armor formations that currently use the Bradley an "assault gun" version would be superfluous as these units operate closely with Abrams tanks.
So why bother?
Stryker was built to a very different set of requirements than the Bradley and is used in a different way. A key requirement for Stryker for example was that it be air-transportable in a C-130. The Bradley can't do that. In its infantry carrier version it also can not carry a full 9-man infantry dismount squad. Because of these and other limitations of the Bradley chassis as regards the Stryker requirements the then United Defense did not even submit a version of the Bradley for the Stryker requirement, instead submitting a combination of the M113A3 and M8 AGS. And there lies the rub. The M8 AGS exists, has been type-classified and would be better than any possible 105mm armed Bradley. In the heavy armor formations that currently use the Bradley an "assault gun" version would be superfluous as these units operate closely with Abrams tanks.
So why bother?
MacTrucks
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:38 PM UTC
Okay, this might seem like a really stupid question, but I thought the M8 AGS never went into production and never saw activity duty. Everything I understood was that a few types were built, but budget cuts and delays claimed this system. I don't consider Wikipedia a reference either (and wish someone would explain to my teenage son that Wiki is NOT a solid reference for school work). Of course a quick web search winds up linking to the site of "he-who-will-not-be-named" bemoaning the lack of a replacement for the M551 Sheridan and implying the few XM8 systems be pressed into service for the 82nd.
The Stryker brigade is something different and really as envisioned more than just wheeled armor. The concept is very interesting, but like everything will have proponents and opponents to it. Only time will tell.
Tactics and equipment are constantly evolving to meet the latest threats. Some times a piece of equipment proves to be more capable and versatile than it was designed. Other times it proves barely capable. No matter what no system is perfect or invincible. Its even worse when you try to use strategy or tactics that simply don't work with the equipment.
The Stryker brigade is something different and really as envisioned more than just wheeled armor. The concept is very interesting, but like everything will have proponents and opponents to it. Only time will tell.
Tactics and equipment are constantly evolving to meet the latest threats. Some times a piece of equipment proves to be more capable and versatile than it was designed. Other times it proves barely capable. No matter what no system is perfect or invincible. Its even worse when you try to use strategy or tactics that simply don't work with the equipment.
Fitz
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 02:51 PM UTC
The M8 AGS was type classified and approved for procurement. Production was not undertaken as the funds were siphoned off for other purposes as noted above. The M8 would have equipped 2 ACR, the 82nd airborne and AGS battalions assigned to light divisions - essentially assault gun battalions. The role of the M8 was not in any way related to the later Interim/Stryker Brigade Combat Teams although United Defense did submit the M8 as part of its losing bid for the Stryker vehicle contract.
BAe Systems still maintains prototypes of the M8 and still markets the vehicle overseas (Taiwan has long been seen as a potential buyer) but there seems to be zero current interest from the U.S. Army. The lack of procurement from the U.S. Army probably puts the M8's export prospects at somewhere around zero, type classified or not.
BAe Systems still maintains prototypes of the M8 and still markets the vehicle overseas (Taiwan has long been seen as a potential buyer) but there seems to be zero current interest from the U.S. Army. The lack of procurement from the U.S. Army probably puts the M8's export prospects at somewhere around zero, type classified or not.
35th-scale
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:55 PM UTC
Slightly off topic, but given all the expertise here...
Why is there no AA version of the Stryker? I know there's no need for one in Iraq, but given the origional thinking behind the SBCTs I would have expected one with a LAV-AD type turret?
Why is there no AA version of the Stryker? I know there's no need for one in Iraq, but given the origional thinking behind the SBCTs I would have expected one with a LAV-AD type turret?
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The M8 AGS was type classified and approved for procurement. Production was not undertaken as the funds were siphoned off for other purposes as noted above. The M8 would have equipped 2 ACR, the 82nd airborne and AGS battalions assigned to light divisions - essentially assault gun battalions. The role of the M8 was not in any way related to the later Interim/Stryker Brigade Combat Teams although United Defense did submit the M8 as part of its losing bid for the Stryker vehicle contract.
BAe Systems still maintains prototypes of the M8 and still markets the vehicle overseas (Taiwan has long been seen as a potential buyer) but there seems to be zero current interest from the U.S. Army. The lack of procurement from the U.S. Army probably puts the M8's export prospects at somewhere around zero, type classified or not.
there's actually more to it than these facts. One branch wanted an air droppable tank with something like a 75mm gun, while the other wanted a much heavier track with a 90 or 105mm gun. The latter was of course not air droppable. But there's still another on again / off again project, and just maybe one more in the 35 to 40 ton class. Anyway all that money for these projects went into the AAAV for the Marine Corps and Royal Marines. A year ago the AAAV was about the hottest project in TACOM's inventory.
gary
JeepLC
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:44 PM UTC
It's funny to see weapon systems and vehicles get bashed around from branch to branch with everyone trying to get their own best interests recognized. I saw a lot of it when my father worked for the government and it is also a little scary to see how stupid the situation gets now that my dad works for a contractor supplying some of the new stuff. Anybody seen the movie The Pentagon Wars?
-Mike
PS: Hasn't the new EFV project gone off track? I was contemplating going in as an 1833 but according to my recruiter and a couple buddies the whole situation is FUBAR...? are they correct?
-Mike
PS: Hasn't the new EFV project gone off track? I was contemplating going in as an 1833 but according to my recruiter and a couple buddies the whole situation is FUBAR...? are they correct?