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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
A list of the Allied releases still needed
paulchatfield
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 09:54 PM UTC
Hi Jim
thanks for the informed insight into my subject matter. It's only ment as a bit of fun, as are all "wish lists" really.
Yes Allied modellers have done better than usual, this past year or so, but the real point was that it's still peanuts compared to the amount of German stuff that the makers churn out.

Cheers

paul
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 06:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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Most manufacturers come up with a list of posiible subjects and then do an evaluation based entirely on that using their researchers or contacts. Any 'public Initiative' (like the recent Tamiya poll) is pure PR. They don't have time to canvass public opinion (whatever that actually is) and certainly DON'T trawl the Forums looking for ideas.



Jim, you actually offer a bit of insight into the decision making process for developing a kit here. Can you elaborate? I presume that the people who design models have their own interests, and those interests very strongly impact the decision making process. I also presume that every company has an ear to the ground, just in case some obvious unfulfilled demand congeals. However, after a preliminary decision gets made, I would expect some level of market research to evaluate potential sales. Do the companies ever conduct polls or form focus groups? Do they float ideas past star reviewers and authors? How does a company determine that a new product will sell well enough to justify the development and manufacturing expense?

And to get back to the subject of this thread, can the average modeler do anything to get a kit produced? Obviously a huge laundry list of every obscure vehicle ever made provides no focus for a manufacturer. But what if the collective voice congeals on one vehicle? Does it have any impact?

My apologies if I am stepping out of bounds here.

-Doug



Hi Doug,

Firstly I'd agree that wish lists are just that, a bit of fun and a wish.

On the "Obviously a huge laundry list of every obscure vehicle ever made provides no focus for a manufacturer" I'm assuning you refering to my list. Don't worry I'm not offended but I would say this. Such a list would I think draw anyones attention to the fact that in this particular example there are few British Trucks for modellers to buy. It's not designed to say can I have every vehicle on the list, mearly to draw attention to the fact that this is a hugh gap in the market and that therefore there may be possibilities to be exploited.

I'm running a thread here:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/128680&page=1

for just such a purpose. It has had 4700 plus hits, sign up if you want, all are welcome.

To help back that up I've gathered up scale drawing and reference pictures in off chance someone might think "we can make some money here".

Do I think it will influence model manufacturers, probably not but it might just spark a bit of interest and you only need one to take an idea forward. If in 3 years I see one new British Truck I'd be delighted, if I see 3 or 4 of the most common vehicles I'd be over the moon.

The rest as they say is in the lap of the Gods, but 18 months ago no one would have said a plastic M4A1 Sherman DV or new Churchill Gun Tank was on the cards ever. Now we have 2 DV's a new Churchill and what could be a fantastic range of AVREs.

There is a lot of British stuff coming out, so now is probably a good time to plant a seed and see if anything grows.

Personally I like to think on the positive side of life, you never know what is around the corner.

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers

Al
HippityHop
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 07:00 AM UTC
Here are my suggestions:

Modern toolings of the 7TP and FT17 (although the RPM version of the latter isn't that bad )

Cheers

Karol
modelpanzer
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Portugal
Joined: October 20, 2008
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 07:38 AM UTC
Vickers, Light Tank, Mks VI, VIA, VIB, VIC (4 in 1)
Light Tank, Mk VII, Tetrarch
Universal Carrier and variants
Infantry Tank, Mk II, Matilda II
Infantry Tank, Mk III, Valentine

Light Tank, M2A4
Light Tank, (Airborne) M22, Locust
Light Tank, M24, Chaffee
M4A3E2 Assault Tank
Tank Recovery Vehicles, M32

Somua S35
Renault R40
One can but live in hope.
Cheers,

José César
paulchatfield
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 08:25 AM UTC




Quoted Text

I'm running a thread here:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/128680&page=1

for just such a purpose. It has had 4700 plus hits, sign up if you want, all are welcome.



I've added my name to your thread, like you said maybe a good time to plant a seed.
some interesting insights you've give Al

Cheers for adding to the thread

Paul
muchachos
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: May 21, 2008
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 08:45 AM UTC
A Ram, some of the early Russian light tanks, a new (or even a re-released) T-35, and, even if this is entirely , I want DML to rerelease their Maus in 1/35th scale!

Scott

EDIT: What'd be really cool is an Archer!
Hodson
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:52 AM UTC
Austin Katy ambulance

and, since it wouldn't take a lot of extra mold work...

Italeri CMP ambulance
AFV Club Stuart Recce
AFV Club17 pounder anti-tank gun




Damraska
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Joined: October 06, 2006
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not even slightly!



Thank you for taking the time to respond again, Jim.


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I'm particularly close to a couple of manufacturers who quite often ask me what I think of a particular subject as a FUTURE release or a project worh pursuing (usually something I have NO knowledge of whatsoever ) So, in this respect I could be considered a one-man focus group?



From my reading, this seems like a common practice. Popular authors and reviewers occasionally drop hints about similar conversations with industry reps. My theory is that the popular authors and reviewers ARE the focus group. They are a natural intermediary between the public and the manufacturers. They have expertise and knowledge of the subject matter often far beyond that of the average modeler. They are in touch with the wants and needs of the community. Further, they write the reviews, articles, and editorials about new products. If authors and reviewers show enthusiasm for a given model, it creates buzz and presumably sells better. Authors and reviewers have a huge impact on my purchases, and comments on this forum and others indicate I am far from alone.


Quoted Text

Do write-in campaigns work? Probably not. If it's backed up by a MASS of documentation and NOT just a 'I want a XXXXXX in 1/35th scale' or a thread like this, it has no chance of seeing the light of day. An individual, following the same path, MAY have a chance to influence a manufacturer, however then the other (vital) factors come into play: Does it fit into the company's release policy? Will it SELL in the core market (the Far East)? and finally, is it a commercial proposition? ... Answer these in the affirmative and it MAY get produced...



I think you really hit the nail squarely here. No documentation, no model. No market, no model. Not profitable, no model.

Let me ask you about another one of my pet theories: Is thorough documentation a strong precursor to model development? For example, axis subjects outnumber allied subjects, and tend to greater accuracy. This mirrors the situation with documentation, where the latest Panzer Tracts outlines every variation and detail of (pick a German tank). In most cases no such books exist for Allied subjects. Does the one (references) fuel the other (models)?

I realize I may be asking unanswerable questions, or the wrong questions entirely, but I'm curious.

Thanks again for the insight.

-Doug
russamotto
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:40 PM UTC
I really would like the manufacturers to "finish the job" so to speak. AFV club, as an example, could do the M8 HMC as they are nearly there with the M5A1. DML already has all the parts to make a 75mm late M4A3. They can even keep the wooden armor from the M4A2 as it really applied to the A3. They also have all the bits except the hull for the M4 composite they have been advertising in their catalog. There are more that could be mentioned. I will continue to dream about kits that will never see the light of day, but it drives me nuts to know how close some are. I can't afford resin or much aftermarket, so I am pretty much stuck to what is offered in the standard kit.

At the same time, I think it would be just as great if some of the existing kits were tweaked a bit to fix them. Academy did a great job redoing the suspension on the M3 Lee. I'll buy one just for that (I really wanted it anyway). With money getting tighter, I'm going for what I really want to buy. The manufacturers will make what they think will sell. If it's what I like, I'll get it. If it's not on my list, I won't. I only spend around $200.00-300 max a year on models. At current prices that is 4-6 kits. It's not enough to influence anybody on what to make for me to build. Reality sucks. But I will keep dreaming, and supporting others in their dreams in hopes that one day it may pay off. And if somebody really does offer what I am looking for, I will certainly get it.

Damraska
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Joined: October 06, 2006
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

On the "Obviously a huge laundry list of every obscure vehicle ever made provides no focus for a manufacturer" I'm assuning you refering to my list. Don't worry I'm not offended but I would say this. Such a list would I think draw anyones attention to the fact that in this particular example there are few British Trucks for modellers to buy. It's not designed to say can I have every vehicle on the list, mearly to draw attention to the fact that this is a hugh gap in the market and that therefore there may be possibilities to be exploited.



Hi Al,

I was actually referring to the entire thread, or more accurately all wish list threads, not your list of British trucks. Further, it was not my intention to belittle your efforts. If you read many of my posts, you will see I come from the opposite place--each modeler should pursue his or her creative impulse to the fullest; a modeler should not let someone else dictate his or her tastes. Further, I never deride a new release just because I am not personally interested. I say good for the people who wanted it. My apologies if I implied otherwise.

I actually believe threads like this one DO have an impact--but the process takes time and may not follow the expected course. Maybe an insider, someone who designs models or makes decisions, happens to read the thread and one item sparks an interest. More probably one item sparks interest in an author or reviewer. He or she raises the subject in casual conversation with other authors and eventually a manufacturing rep. Maybe one idea consumes an average modeler, who writes the ultimate book on tank x, and it comes to the attention of a manufacturer. Maybe everyone suddenly wants tank X, and it gets back to the manufacturers. Whatever the road, the unfulfilled want starts the process. Making that want known and getting a lot of other people to want the same thing increases the odds of success. The long list may very well start the process, but it lacks focus. At some point the list must collapse to a single subject. That was my point.


Quoted Text

To help back that up I've gathered up scale drawing and reference pictures in off chance someone might think "we can make some money here".



One of my pet theories is that good reference material drives model development. One of my favorite books is "Firefly" by Mark Hayward. Within a couple years of publication, DML and especially Tasca produced much more accurate Firefly kits. After Jentz and Doyle published detailed works on the Panther and Tiger, much more accurate Panthers and Tigers followed. The evidence is anecdotal but hints at a pattern.


Quoted Text

Do I think it will influence model manufacturers, probably not but it might just spark a bit of interest and you only need one to take an idea forward. If in 3 years I see one new British Truck I'd be delighted, if I see 3 or 4 of the most common vehicles I'd be over the moon.



Again, I think you should pursue your passion. I also think you (or any average modeler) can have an impact. I am not asking Jim questions just to kill all hope for the average modeler with a wish. I am looking for the roadblocks and ways around them. I have my own wish list, after all.

Good luck in your quest!

-Doug
AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 07:58 AM UTC
Hi Doug,

Wasn't offended by you thoughts at all, you could say I'm just trying to raise awareness because like you I do think that if a subject gets talked about, comes to someone attention then the chances of a kit coming from that are much greater than if we all accept the status quo.

Personally I'm amazed at the number of British kits coming out this last 2 years, just amazed. If manufacturers are finding a market for these outside Europe and America then the chances of more are greatly increased.

Yes, things take time, the 8th Army set was almost 3 years from the Great Figure Debate.

As Jim says you need to have something for them to build on or with and reference material is a key when dealing with vehicles. Figures are easier, there are penty of great examples around to build a reference from, not always so easy with vehicles.

Understand what you are saying about needing to focus into a smaller area but I have tried to do that by 'hinting' at what might be the most useful, most likely to sell and have the most development opportunity from the basic kit hence the Bedford and 15cwt angle as with the basic chassis and cab a lot of possibilities are possible and manufactures tend to like that. Also tying trucks into both Allied and Axis use, which of course they were, hopefully broadens the possible market.

These threads themselves are good fun, you always get a lot of communnication, sometimes some good information, or references, it's what I've tried to build into the Trucks Campaign, Not as much responce as one would like but people are looking and if they are looking maybe they are also thinking that might be fun.

Thanks form your support I shall soldier on and see how things go.

Good luck with your own list.

Al

russamotto
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:09 AM UTC
Has anyone already mentioned the need for the M-24? I know there are two M18 kits out there but are they good? Do they need a replacement? They might turn my attention back (momentarily) to Europe, although I have a couple of photos of the M18 in the Phillipines. Of course, I have a list of airplanes and ships I would like to see. This kind of thing can keep going and going and going. . . . . .

I will just keep dreaming.
Damraska
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 02:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Has anyone already mentioned the need for the M-24? I know there are two M18 kits out there but are they good? Do they need a replacement? They might turn my attention back (momentarily) to Europe, although I have a couple of photos of the M18 in the Phillipines.



The M18, M10, M36, and Achilles kits by Academy and AFV Club all have the much dreaded "dimensional issues". Ditto for the Academy M3/M3A1 Stuart tanks. You can build really nice looking models with all of those kits, but if you want something closer to perfection (like an accurately shaped hull and turret) they all need major work. How much does a new millimeters here and there bother you? (That's a rhetorical question.)

As far as I know, Italeri's M24 is dimensionally accurate but needs some TLC to reach modern standards. If that's too much work, Formations offers a complete overhaul.

I would welcome improved or new tooled models of all those subjects, but the issues won't stop me from building what's available.

-Doug
russamotto
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 02:53 PM UTC
I'm working on the M3A1 from Academy right now with my boys. I think it's a great kit. We have photos of it in action and they wanted to do it like the pictures show. That's why I would be happy with most any of the releases asked for. I have a basic reference point and a keen interest. I just don't have all the kits I want. My guess is everyone else feels the same.
calvin_ng
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 03:26 PM UTC
hey russ, im from hong kong(i came here when i was 3)and models back there are 3x less than what the retail prices are here. i barely spend on models here, i wait till the summer when i go back to hong kong and and at 200.00 -300.00$$ which is 1600.00 - 2400.00 hong kong dollars, and one 1/35 kit being around 100.00 - 200.00 h.k dollars depending on brand , i can buy around 15-20 models, but thats the price of armour im talking about dont get me started on the A/C and ships
BigfootV
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 03:45 PM UTC
Italeri made an M-24 and M-32 Recovery, Dodge "Beep", Mk II Cruiser, 2 1/2/ ton truck kits years back, Tamiya made a few British pieces, the Matid. was one of them and I think they did a Valentine at one point along with the 6 pdr Field gun, with the mover, M4A3E2 Jumbo and the M4A3E8 "Easy Eight."
Tamiya "recycles" there kits every 5-10 yrs. or so while some companies do the "One shot, one kill." productions which you never see again. The Italeri kits stated above are examples of that. Here today, gone tomorrow.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that the older kits are starting to come back alittle with PE's added to them. Tamiya's Tiger I is a prime example.

I personal would like to see more PTO armor, Japanese stuff. Tamiya had a limited line of the stuff years ago, but because of LOW SALES, they stopped production.

Which is something companies also look at. How much money can this model make us, and can we charge $48.00 to $56.00 for it, and is it a "MUST HAVE IN MY COLLECTION." piece. The Dora is a perfect examlpe of that one. $650.00 for a kit with that many flaws in it!!If I'm going to blow that type of cash it had best be perfect!! No runs, no drips, no errors!!!

The ETO has been done to death, sorry, granted it's was the main focus for the war effort, but there were other places at war, that's why it was called WW2.

Anyways, there's my two cents.
lightningdon
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West Virginia, United States
Joined: May 06, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 08:40 AM UTC
I would like to see an injected models of US towed arty and associated support vehicles. How about a 3 inch anti-tank gun, Bofors AA gun, ammo trailers, etc. Hobby Boss came through with the M4 HS Tractors.
muchachos
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I personal would like to see more PTO armor, Japanese stuff. Tamiya had a limited line of the stuff years ago, but because of LOW SALES, they stopped production.




I'm pretty sure you can order Tamiya's Japanese stuff off Luckymodel.
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