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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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German "Disc Type" or "TII type" camo scheme
tskross
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 05:47 AM UTC
Hi this discussion started while talking about potential camo schemes for a Jagdpanzer IV L/70. The scheme was inspired by a couple of pics from other forums posted below:

FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY
panther from the LAH (time period not known)


12th SS jagdpanzer in the Ardennes dec 44


To help describe the process I made a couple quick jpgs (note they aren't necessarily accurate in terms of color and pattern, they are just meant to help illustrate the process)

First step, regular 2 or 3 color soft edge camo scheme:


second step the stencil (black area)


third step, disc stencil (grey area this time) placed over 3 color scheme (note: this would have been done in sections, I just did the whole area for ease of illustration)


yellow is then sprayed over the stencil leaving this:


Now this is a very 'clean' sample as the circles are perfect and their is no stencil overlap since I applied my imaginary stencils all at once. You can see in the original pics above that the circles are rather polygonal since they were cut by hand and that the pattern overlaps in some areas and there are gaps in other areas

Hope this helps explain this rather rare and unusual but interesting German camo scheme!!

cheers
tskross
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 06:07 AM UTC
Nice post ts, just a couple of comments. In your title you posted:
"Subject: German "Disc Type" or "TII type" camo scheme"
If by "TII" you meant Tiger II, then that would be incorrect, the disc scheme was not used on Tiger II's.
Also, if anyone is interested in going into more depth on the disc scheme, there is an excellent article in AFV Modeller about it. The article can be downloaded for a very modest price here:
http://shop.afvmodeller.com/customer/product.php?productid=16435&cat=284&page=1&XCARTSESSID=92d450b544cf1a57559cbf178cf6c4aa

Cheers,
Mike
marcb
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 06:33 AM UTC
Now this is were a pe (Lionroar?) producer could jump in. Making a stencil for this pattern.
tskross
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 06:43 AM UTC
@mike,
Great article!! Thanks for sharing
no 'TII' doesn't refer to a type of afv, it is simply the designation given to this camo scheme in some sources (heimdal's book on the LAH seems to be the original as far as I can tell) And after reading that article I would guess it stands for tarnmuster II as the author of the article in AFV refers to the disc type as a variant of the tarnmuster I scheme...

@mark, its so easy to make one, simply use a graphic program (I have photoshop but anything like ms paint would do)
use the shape tool to make circles, print it out on card stock (or skipping the pc altogether use a good old compass to draw the circles), cut out the gaps between the circles with your trusty x-acto and voila, you have an authentic disc type stencil!!
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 07:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

@mike,
Great article!! Thanks for sharing
no 'TII' doesn't refer to a type of afv, it is simply the designation given to this camo scheme in some sources (heimdal's book on the LAH seems to be the original as far as I can tell) And after reading that article I would guess it stands for tarnmuster II as the auther of the article in AFV refers to the disc type as a variant of the tarnmuster I scheme...

Ok, gotcha.
jjumbo
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 08:04 AM UTC
Hey guys,
Another simpler option would be to get some of the small stickers that are used in office work for colour coding folders and pages.
The stickers I've used are made by Avery, come in a variety of colours and sizes.
The ones I've used are .64cm (1/4") dots in size, you get 6 sheets of 192 = 1152 per pack.

http://www.avery.ca/avery/en_ca/Products/Labels/Identification-Labels/_/number-per-sheet-192/_/N=4294967251+4294965348

They should adhere to most surfaces except maybe zimmerit.
All you do is attach them in a pattern such as tskross's, spray paint your kit and then peel them off.
Cheers

jjumbo
Bratushka
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 10:34 AM UTC
Hi TK. I see exactly what you mean about this pattern now. Thanks for the excellent example. Again, I don't really recall seeing this pattern before, at least if I did it wasn't obvious to me that's what I was seeing. You referred to this pattern as Ambush Camouflage in the other thread as well as the TII name, one I hadn't heard before. To repeat myself for the benefit of those who didn't follow our conversation there, I thought that Ambush Camo was the three color, irregular shaped pattern of the dunkelgelb, green, and brown with flecks of each color painted within the larger areas. For example, the dunkelgelb ares would have flecks of green, the green areas would have flecks of brown, and the brown areas would have flecks of dunkelgelb. (the fleck colors may be out of order related to the background colors) I have also seen this same three color theme with only one or two colors used for the flecks. I know the scheme I described was called Ambush Camouflage which is why I started calling it that.

So, if what I described isn't actually Ambush Camouflage, what is it called?

I really appreciate any clarification on this subject because it makes discussions difficult when I am using incorrect terminology when asking questions or expressing an opinion.

There are some colors of paint in one of my Vallejo Panzer Aces sets that are called Splinter Camouflage. I'm pretty sure that's a uniform camouflage pattern isn't it?

Lastly, some months back there was a brief thread where a LHS owner wanted to poll AFV modelers about a particular shade of blue paint it was recommended he carry that was for German WWII AFV interiors. A few people responded that this was news to them, and I started a thread asking about the whole blue color thing. I thought it would start quite a discussion, but it didn't get much attention. I know I found it another case of "Everything You Know is Wrong" and wished it could have been resolved to my satisfaction. Someone did provide some information about a book that was being written which had exhaustive research on the subject of German AFV paints done by the author. This included his access to and research on unrestored, relatively intact German military vehicles including AFVs. The poster didn't want to release too much information related to the subject because it was going to be in the book. I have waited to hear more about it hoping it would be completed and published soon. If it would be as factual as was implied and would be sold for a reasonable price it would be an indispensable aid to builders of German WWII AFVs. Does anybody remember this discussion or know anything about the book that was mentioned?
tskross
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 11:15 AM UTC
Hey Jim,

I've heard of it described both ways, but I feel like it is slightly different than the typical ambush pattern (although I suppose the sought after effect is the same)

Speaking of the German afv colors check out this thread
German AFV colours

In it he talks about this blue/green interior color. Its a great article, very in-depth and very helpful as he provides vallejo tamiya and humbrol equivalents to the original RAL colors. Oh and yeah the vallejo splinter colors refer to the splinter pattern on items like the zeltbahn (sp?) I gotta say I just started using the vallejo paints and I can't say enough good things about them, both the airbrush and the model colors

Also if you are really interested in the disc camo, check out that afv article that Mike posted a link to above, it costs £1 but it is well worth it, extremely informative and the panther that the author has done is also very nice.

@John, that is a good idea, although to be totally accurate it should be a repeated stencil (again that afv article explains it well), which I suppose you could still do with the avery dots, you would just have to be careful not to stick them to the model
Bratushka
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 02:59 PM UTC
Hi again TK! Thanks for the article on the Vallejo paints. I moved to them from Model Master Acryl. This will be a handy reference! I have recently begun using Life Colors paints. I have their German WWII Armor sets I and II, the WWII British in the Middle East set, the two WWII German Uniforms sets, and the US OD Green set. They are very good paints as well and I have seen much praise on the accuracy of their colors. I have their finishing sets on my wish list.

The article you provided isn't the one I was referring to. That one, if memory serves, indicated that it was the entire floor area and going upwards along the walls and racks, etc. that were painted blue. Since my insomnia has come to visit for awhile I will see if I can track it down in the wee hours.

Again, I don't feel any closer to knowing what the camouflage pattern I like so well is called. I did learn of a new one, thanks to you. I may have to see if I can find some images of what I am looking to find out later as well.
bizzychicken
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 05:50 AM UTC
The Disc pattern was used mainly on Schurzen, side skirts. there is famous photo of a Panther of H.G Pz Div with disk camo schurzen. A great artical of a Stug IV by Gary Edmundson also shows this great camo pattern in Osprey Masterclass, Armour Modelling by John Prigent. The CIP catalogue record from the British libraray is ISBN-10 1 84176 974 6 or ISBN-13 978 1 84176 974 5 . A great book/read. Cheers Geraint
SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 07:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Again, I don't feel any closer to knowing what the camouflage pattern I like so well is called. I did learn of a new one, thanks to you. I may have to see if I can find some images of what I am looking to find out later as well.

Rest easy Jim, you've been correct all along. The actual name for the "ambush pattern" is Hinterhalt and the order was issued in August 1944. It was designed to mimic sunlight shining through the leaves on the trees and was extremely effective. Stand under a tree on a sunny day and you'll see how much the ground looks like Hinterhalt. In order to achieve a more standardized pattern, camouflage paint began to be applied at the factory. Hinterhalt (“Ambush Camouflage”), consisted of a base of dark yellow (Dunkelgelb) with olive-green and red-brown (Olivgrün & Rotbraun) patches. On top of this pattern were added small contrasting dots of all three paints. Some factories airbrushed these dots freehand; and some used triangular stencils so that the dots looked like "Doritos" chips.
tskross
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 08:45 AM UTC
@geraint in the AFV article the author talks about that photo and he speculates that the shurtzen were applied to a panther that was completed at a later date (after he . There is actually a very limited time period when the pattern was used (factory applied that is). Like I said above the AFV mag article is really very good and the source material seems pretty spot on (ouch, bad pun )!
bizzychicken
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 12:06 PM UTC
Thanks I'll down load the AFV artical, cheers Geraint
Bratushka
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 01:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Again, I don't feel any closer to knowing what the camouflage pattern I like so well is called. I did learn of a new one, thanks to you. I may have to see if I can find some images of what I am looking to find out later as well.

Rest easy Jim, you've been correct all along. The actual name for the "ambush pattern" is Hinterhalt and the order was issued in August 1944. It was designed to mimic sunlight shining through the leaves on the trees and was extremely effective. Stand under a tree on a sunny day and you'll see how much the ground looks like Hinterhalt. In order to achieve a more standardized pattern, camouflage paint began to be applied at the factory. Hinterhalt (“Ambush Camouflage”), consisted of a base of dark yellow (Dunkelgelb) with olive-green and red-brown (Olivgrün & Rotbraun) patches. On top of this pattern were added small contrasting dots of all three paints. Some factories airbrushed these dots freehand; and some used triangular stencils so that the dots looked like "Doritos" chips.


Matt, I'm going to have to write you into my will!! You have saved my sanity again!
Sometimes my memory is a bit more porous than I like to admit, but I was certain that the pattern I described was called Ambush Camouflage. In particular I recall a Panther, I think, someone had built and posted pictures of that had a magnificent rendition of this camo scheme. That was some time ago.

I figured the spots were to add the effect you described. I didn't save the link, but when looking for this pattern early this A.M. I came across a series of color photos of a Panzer III (I think) with a variation of this pattern taken both in open country and then parked under some trees with the light coming through the branches. It was pretty remarkable. This one only used the dunkelgelb color for the spots, though.

I'm still glad I saw the disc pattern camouflage as well. Down the road it will show up on something I am building!


EDIT: TK, I am only seeing place holders for the pictures of how to do the disc camo that you posted. Did you take them down?
integraguy95
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Posted: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 02:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Again, I don't feel any closer to knowing what the camouflage pattern I like so well is called. I did learn of a new one, thanks to you. I may have to see if I can find some images of what I am looking to find out later as well.

Rest easy Jim, you've been correct all along. The actual name for the "ambush pattern" is Hinterhalt and the order was issued in August 1944. It was designed to mimic sunlight shining through the leaves on the trees and was extremely effective. Stand under a tree on a sunny day and you'll see how much the ground looks like Hinterhalt. In order to achieve a more standardized pattern, camouflage paint began to be applied at the factory. Hinterhalt (“Ambush Camouflage”), consisted of a base of dark yellow (Dunkelgelb) with olive-green and red-brown (Olivgrün & Rotbraun) patches. On top of this pattern were added small contrasting dots of all three paints. Some factories airbrushed these dots freehand; and some used triangular stencils so that the dots looked like "Doritos" chips.


kross in your first post is the picture of the Jagdpanzer IV in which I used for the basis of my camo scheme, and I can see the dark yellow spots over the entire vehicle but I can not pick up on the darker colored dots. This particular picture is from a very short video clip that can be found on youtube, narrated as one of the only surviving video footage of a jagdpanzer IV L/70. That video is much to dark to even see the dots over the pattern. The pattern mentioned above is exactly what i was trying to go for, minus the red brown and olive green dots. My opinion was that they did very little to reproduce the sunlight breaking through the treetop effect. I hope I atleast accruately reproduce the camoflage pattern in some degree.
tskross
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Posted: Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 03:01 AM UTC
hmmm...I replaced the images for the how to part of the first post...hopefully they'll stay this time! I'm uploading them to my member gallery, is there somewhere else I should be putting them?

@Justin, I know its hard to see in that photo especially as the circles in this particular pattern seem to be quite tightly packed but if you look carefully you can see that the darker tones (green and brown) are oversprayed with yellow, is some areas this results in a 'cloud' effect, and in others, where the stencil was in place it results in the circle effect.

I tried to illustrate it below, but it is not too clear at this resolution:
integraguy95
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Posted: Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:57 PM UTC
hm, if you put it that way, i can certainly see that a bit clearer. I've never looked at it like that! nice job kross!
Bratushka
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 10:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

hm, if you put it that way, i can certainly see that a bit clearer. I've never looked at it like that! nice job kross!


I have to agree with Justin on the photo where you darkened the circles, TK. It certainly did make it plainer to see. You still threw me when you called it Ambush Camouflage on Justin's build thread. When you explained how the flecks were made I just couldn't tie it together in my head by your description of the procedure and what I perceived Ambush Camo to look like. Now that I know we were talking about two different types of camouflage it makes sense again. I was relieved to know I was correct in my understanding of Ambush Camouflage. While the Disc Camo produces a similar flecking or spotting effect, they really are two different things. One thing I have learned in this forum is that absolutes concerning German paint colors, camo patterns, techniques etc. tend to seldom be absolute. I have seen more than one definitive assertion on that subject (and many others) proven wrong in this forum.

I do like unusual camo patterns and had thought about reproducing the octopus pattern on something, not necessarily the one tank that is almost always pictures with it, but even though it was unusual, I didn't particularly care for it. That disk pattern IS something else entirely and I really do like it. I would like to see a color picture of a model finished in it so I could see it plainly.
tskross
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 12:26 PM UTC
Sorry about that confusion, I guess that's why they say a picture is worth a thousand words!!

here is a link to a jagdpanzer finished in the disc scheme:
Brian Murdoch's Jagdpanzer IV l/70

and very nicely done too
Kelley
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 12:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That disk pattern IS something else entirely and I really do like it. I would like to see a color picture of a model finished in it so I could see it plainly.

Jim, one of the best representations of the disc scheme on a model I have seen can be found in the article I linked to in my post near the beginning of this thread, here it is again:
http://shop.afvmodeller.com/customer/product.php?productid=16435&cat=284&page=1&XCARTSESSID=92d450b544cf1a57559cbf178cf6c4aa
You would have to pay a little (about $1.45 USD ) to download the article but I think it's well worth it.

Mike
tskross
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 03:16 PM UTC
I agree with Mike, it is definitely worth the money if you are seriously considering tackling this came scheme and especially nice is that it only takes a minute to order and download it. Thanks again for posting the link, it filled alot of gaps for me (like the meaning of TII)
Kelley
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 04:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry about that confusion, I guess that's why they say a picture is worth a thousand words!!

here is a link to a jagdpanzer finished in the disc scheme:
Brian Murdoch's Jagdpanzer IV l/70

and very nicely done too

Yes! That's the other one I was thinking of, but couldn't find it. Brian did an excellent job on this one!

Mike
Bratushka
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry about that confusion, I guess that's why they say a picture is worth a thousand words!!

here is a link to a jagdpanzer finished in the disc scheme:
Brian Murdoch's Jagdpanzer IV l/70

and very nicely done too


Thanks for that link! I really like that finish and it's a great model as well!. I noticed that he used all 3 basic camo colors which I assume is why the discs aren't noticable on the dunkelgelb areas.
Bratushka
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Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That disk pattern IS something else entirely and I really do like it. I would like to see a color picture of a model finished in it so I could see it plainly.

Jim, one of the best representations of the disc scheme on a model I have seen can be found in the article I linked to in my post near the beginning of this thread, here it is again:
http://shop.afvmodeller.com/customer/product.php?productid=16435&cat=284&page=1&XCARTSESSID=92d450b544cf1a57559cbf178cf6c4aa
You would have to pay a little (about $1.45 USD ) to download the article but I think it's well worth it.

Mike


I book marked the site, Mike. I am on my way to purchase the download!
JimMrr
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2009 - 12:23 AM UTC
What a great paint project! Does anyone know if this pattern would be prototype for a late-war Stug ???? Id love to give it a whirl, but would HATE to apply it to the wrong vehicle!!
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