Hi guys,

I'm still in the process of creating the Dieppe Churchill markings - it's getting there alright. However, I've stuck at the turret number colours at the moment - I'm inclined to believe they are yellow instead of white as most believed. Evidence is shown in most photos that most of the numbers weren't as bright when compared to the whites in the red/white/red flashes, WDNs and Vehicle names. In fact, there are some close-ups that shows it being real close to the shade of the maple leaf... I know some illustrations even support this notion - in the case of NV's Churchill's OKE "BEETLE"... Even the single known colour photo of rear of "BLOSSOM" shows the "9" in yellow. So, are there anyone with or against this notion?

Lawrence,

You should really go right to the source.....the King's Own Calgary Regiment...the guys who fought at Dieppe.

You can contact the Regimental museum right here in Calgary by email and ask your question....I am sure they would be more than happy to hear about your decals and help you out. Some of the volunteers at their museum actually fought at Dieppe in the Churchills and were captured.....I have had some good chats with them over the years.

They might even be able to help you out with additional images.

Here is a link for the The Military Museums contacts......

http://www.themilitarymuseums.com/main/page.php?page_id=14

Lawrence,

"Bert" shows yellow square outline, black inside with white number 6.

Holy c.....!!! Where did you get that information??? Please tell me you've got good evidence to support that. The next thing we know is, light green outlines, royal blue insides and pink numbers... That's it, no more guessing... and no messing with my head please...

Jason, thanks for the link I've just sent two e-mails to two names at the Museum. I didn't know the link existed earlier, hopefully they get back to me soon...

No offense Brian, you threw a curve ball at me on that one... If you weren't kidding about it, my apologies as your input is appreciated. I just wish to know where did you come with that information. I've always thought they were always white on black with light blue outlines, now I'm a little convinced that the numbers are yellow...

Lawrence,

Sorry for the curve. I'll have that for you shortly.

My pleasure, the KOCR museum is excellent.....they have some great images of the Dieppe Churchills. They will likely have images pre-Dieppe while training in the UK as well.

http://www.northirishhorse.net/articles/Dieppe/16.html

3/4 of the way down the page, right rear. Number 9 in white. Photo of "Bert" in B&W. I found a artist coloring of "Bert" showing numbers white.
The webpage of this artist coloring has nude stuff on it also for some reason. I'll not post that site for that reason here.

Above stated site also has type of Churchill's used, unit, Vehc. ID #'s, Commander's name, Name of Tank, and lastly the reason for damage or loss of tank.

My thoughts fwiw: I'd suspect that's a colourized photo. All other photos from this series/time frame are b & w, why is there just this one colour photo?

Jim

Try looking here, one of the best sites for Canadian vehicle markings. I've used it a lot over the years:

http://www.armouredacorn.com/cvm.html

I may be doing mine the one of the schemes from there.

Dave,

Forgot about that site. OOOOPPPPSSS.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your input. I understand your point regarding the colour image, but lets assume that there wasn't any to begin with. I've seen up close several rear and front view shots (mostly up close), all seem to indicate that the digits are not in the same shade as the white (against "175" and center part of the RWR flash). Even from far, the digits just fade away versus the ever bright "175"... all this make me wonder if that the colour image may seem legitimate.

Please look closely at just the front and back of the known good images. If they are indeed not white, then would the turret numbers also correspond to that colour too?

Just to give you an idea, look at the front of BEEFY, front of BERT, rear of BERT, rear of BLONDIE, front of BELLICLOSE, front of BLOODY, rear of BLOODY, front of CHIEF.. All these seems to indicate non-white of the digits. The front and rear are the best to look at because they are always in the shade thus making them low contrast as compared to the turrets, which are always in full view of the sun glare. Even some of the turrets which were featured in low contrast views seem to indicate off-white numbers...

Cheers,

Lawrence

On the subject of color or colorised image, the second one I've never seen in B/W before, has anyone?

http://www.ww2incolor.com/canada/DZWvE_691_1%23.html

http://www.ww2incolor.com/canada/DieppeAugust211942-SignalSer.html

Could it be both from a magazine article?? Beats the cr*p out of me!

*ammended* post - darn, someone did see it in a B/W format before...

An interesting discussion. Following pictures illustrate well Lawrence's point:

Source: Bundesarchiv


Source: Bundesarchiv via Wikipedia


It also seems (at least to my tired eyes) that the color of the square border is different from the actual number within.

HTH

-A-

That is a good site....but I have spoken to members of the King's Own Calgary Regiment at the museum and they have some issues with the colours of some of the markings depicted on the Dieppe Churchills on the site.

Given the fact that the colour photos were probably colourized after the fact and that they were done in the 1940s there might be some differences over the years....and Armoured Acorn has done the best they could with the reference material that was available to them.

Hopefully the Regimental museum will shed some light on the correct colour of the markings.

Any way you look at the colours it is great to see interest in a very important part of Canadian Armoured Corps history.

Thanks for the linked images, Aleš. And Brain, Dave for the useful links. My points exactly, I don't think I'm the first to debunk the white numbers notion. New Vanguard's Dieppe OKE vehicle illustration seems to think they are not white either (yellow on theirs). Which I think is closer to the truth than white - if you look at the shade of maple leaf, it's a pretty close match. Of course that's just making guesses.
But given the process of elimination, it can't be red or blue, that leaves green and yellow. Green seems like a complete mismatch against light blue. Unless pink?!...

Hope the museum veteran folks get back to me soon, Jason. If not, could you please give them a "nudge" for me?

Yup, keep in touch with me regarding contact you have with them.....if you don't hear anything back in a bit let me know....I live about 15 minutes away from the museum.

Hi Jason,

Much thanks and well appreciated for your help! My e-mail were sent to: Dick Roach and Al Judson (both had their e-mails listed on the website). At the moment, no replies yet. Maybe they need time.

Best regards,

Lawrence

Hi Lawrence,

I tend to agree with you about those numbers; they certainly seem a shade darker than the known white. While the color photo may be hand colored, it still has the majority of info correct. Not something that a person in a lab a great distance from the battleground would intuitively know. I know that Barry Beldam (Armoured Acorn) is fastidious in his research but perhaps the Dieppe
work was done some time ago?

FWIW,
Ron V

Hey Lawrence

Keep us updated with your progress... a Dieppe Churchill is slowly but surely climbing my list of future projects.... Look forward to hearing about your progress!

Carmen

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your show of support. It is not my intention to drag Armoured Acorn into view/question (although that would be inevitable as many modellers have that site in highest regards and it's the only authority that I know of on the internet relating to Canadian AFV subjects / markings). My sincere apologies to Barry for all this - all un-intended. What I'm targetting is the general concensus on the accepted colour which many believed to be white, all due to the confusion caused by B/W images. So it is going to be an uphill task of convincing everyone, if indeed it isn't white. And I'm pretty sure that's going to negatively impact on the sales of the set(s) once released. I'll have to thread this very carefully (yes, I'm still for a colour other than white).

With every project that I get into, either personal, official or both, I tend to dig really deep, particularly if I have serious doubts. I have to bring this up on the forum because it's the fastest way to get any useful response or feedback especially when we are a thousands of miles apart. Every help I received is well appreciated. Ultimately, the final result will still be "shared" with anyone who chose to believe in it. My local peers will give me a really silly look if I bring this up with them... Some in-the-know will of course lead me to Armoured Acorn, and the whole thing will go one horrendously huge circle once again.

Brian, I think I know where you've gotten the idea of yellow outlines with white numbers. I think that was changed when the vehicle was in Dieppe. Probably a shift in regimental status?

Ron, assuming that I think I know who you are, has Mr B. approached you with regards to Canadian Shermans yet? That's the next subject I'll be moving onto once I've settled the Dieppe markings. Anyway, great to have you onboard!

Another potential fly in the ointment. Interpretting black and white photos from the WW2 period can be misleading. Depending on the type of film used, colours show up as different tones. If shot on panchromatic film then the tones are pretty much the same as modern BW film, but orthochromatic film shows yellow particularly as almost black, orange and red are also distorted, whilst greens and blues are often lighter than expected.

Hi Dave,

Point well considered and highlighted. I've seen the effects on orthochromatic films and the "dangers" they present to researchers and modellers alike (especially those unaware of its existence). However, I'd like to guide your "target acquisition device" to the rear of beached BLONDIE above. It is good fortune that we're able to access clear images like this so that everyone can get a better look.

In our world, we look for constants to ensure stability of views and opinions, and with it we can determine the variables around them. The constant here is the colour of the maple leaf - yellow (often depicted as a brighter shade of grey in NON-ortho films?). So can we safely assume that we're looking at the normal type of B/W image? Next, moving your vision to the left of the maple leaf, we see an outlined box which is comparably darker than leaf's light grey. And inside that box is a lighter shade of grey representing the tactical number. However, that grey isn't as bright as the white in the RWR flash as well as "175" on AOS. Secondly, to ensure that the integrity of the shades aren't jeopardised by external elements we scan for layers of dirts as these could easily influence the outcome of the finds. On the rear of Blondie, it's considered spotlessly free of dirt. On top of that, to make sure this is not an isolated incident (one of a kind example), we look at other images. Please look into your best references as there are many good rear and front views around. You'll find that all seems to follow a certain standard code of colours, nothing seems out of the norm...

As you can see, before I decided to bring this matter online, I've already tried my best to apply whatever "scientific process of elimination" to determine the shades... Unless of course, the maple leaf was never always yellow, which could prove my theories all but right... Otherwise, I don't see how we can't agree on the fact that the digit isn't really white...

Anyway, Al Judson from Museum has finally replied to my query. Thank you for your time, Al!

He has indicated that all the tactical numbers were white and to support this information, he attached images - B/W line illustrations of Dieppe Churchills, created by Barry Beldam btw. Thank you for your troubles and effort, Al! Very much appreciated!

So it seems that I am fighting a loosing battle... Boy, the uphill sure is steep!

Jason, it will be good to know whom you have spoken to that have issues with the colours. If it isn't convenient to say who they are, would you be able to contact them (when you're free and able of course) to see if there is anything that can be brought up. If it was Al you've spoken to, then I guess we don't have an issue after all. And I've brought all this nonsense upon myself...

Hey Lawrence

If it's any consolation, I totally see your points regarding the colors. You've prompted quite the discussion here.

I pulled out my copy of Through the Lens - Dieppe and in my opinion I can see both sides of the argument. I do not proclaim to be an expert but in my humble opinion The majority of the photos look white, but then again there are a few tanks that look yellow (definately have a different shade then the white numbers) as you proclaim. BUT when I look at different pictures of the same tank some photos look white and other look yellow for the same marking... it's so hard to say.... Plus it's a book so God knows what's happened int he reproduction of the photos.

I at first thought it could have been unique to a specific troop or perhaps just the Hdq unit but nothing added up.

Lawrence - Do you have the ability to include both yellow and white decals on your sheet, like your Polish Parpathian Lancers decal set where you included both red and black turret numbers?? I imagine you can't due to room on the sheet... but then it might satisfy all those who are of one opinion or the other...

There could be one explanation to the color variations.... It's a long shot but worth mentioning for everyone's information....

The Churchills were water proofed and some of the crews used a smoke shell to burn away the water proofing. I've also read that some "light" explosives were applied to the deep wading gear to help jettison (blow) them once on the beach... do you think these could have discolored the numbers?? I've also read of fires on the tanks due to tracker fire and hits from enemy shells. It's a far fetched idea given some of the tanks look pretty clean, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Whatever you decide Lawrence it will look amazing as always. Cheers mate!!

Lawrence

I think that this is a situation that will not be fully resolved until a veteran (if there are any left) or some original paint specs turn up. My interpretation of the photos above:

The front view of 'Bert' would say that the number was the same colour as the maple leaf with the outline of the square darker - perhaps blue.

The rear view of '7' below it would say that the outline of the square was yellow and the number perhaps blue.

Would it vary from troop to troop?