Converting Dragon's Pz III Ausf L to an N
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 04:35 AM UTC
Hi All ,
Here are some snaps of my latest project to convert a Panzer III Ausf L into the later verson Ausf N with wading exuast and side skirts ,
first job was to fill hull escape hatches:
next up to modify the rear hull plates to match the Ausf N hull exuast system and add a tow bar
Some details that hopefully improve the look of the exuast
Thanks for looking all comments most welcome
Best,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 02, 2007
KitMaker: 781 posts
Armorama: 676 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 08:25 AM UTC
this looks promising im gonna keep my eye on this
im building tamiya's panzer III ausf N
i await more updates
tony
Connecticut, United States
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 1,165 posts
Armorama: 1,105 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 03:47 PM UTC
Jerry looks good so far. Don't give up now. Your just getting started.
On da bench
Dragon Tiger I Early
Takom T-55A
Three Takom Mark IV's
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 12:20 AM UTC
Here are some progress shots of the Panzer III track guards.
Regards
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 12:28 AM UTC
Great work so far Jerry. It looks like you everything under control.
I did the opposite a while ago ... converted a "N" back to a late "L" version.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 11:44 PM UTC
Thanks to all for your replies ,
Frank ,
I was going to go for the Tamiya Ausf N but I opted for the Dragon Ausf L because of the extra level of detail and it was nearly £15 cheaper, superb kit to build it falls together
Best wishes,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 03:54 AM UTC
Guys
Here are some more up-dates of progress. The hull is nearly finnished now , does anyone know where the external fire extingusher was repositioned on the Panzer III with skirts ?
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 07:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
does anyone know where the external fire extingusher was repositioned on the Panzer III with skirts
Hi Jerry. Same as before ... back left fender. The position doesn´t change.
Im looking at Achtung Panzer ... and its the front details that show the biggest change ... and for your version of the ausf N (converted from an ausf M) .......
There should be a bosch headlight on each front fender ... no notek. Single bosch left was introduced on last L, and 2 introduced with M.
No width indicator lights (from late L).
No horn (from late L).
The headlights beside the front brake cooling intakes were also removed from the late L.
The side air vents should have water tight covers .. over the grills.
If you can get your hands on this book ... its the single best for conversions.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 08:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[Hi Jerry. Same as before ... back left fender. The position doesn´t change.
Im looking at Achtung Panzer ... and its the front details that show the biggest change ... and for your version of the ausf N (converted from an ausf M) .......
There should be a bosch headlight on each front fender ... no notek. Single bosch left was introduced on last L, and 2 introduced with M.
No width indicator lights (from late L).
No horn (from late L).
The headlights beside the front brake cooling intakes were also removed from the late L.
The side air vents should have water tight covers .. over the grills.
Cheers Frank
Once you put the frame for the skirts the Extingusher does not fit with regards to the lights I have seen a number of different layouts , I think this depended on whether the Ausf N was converted from an Ausf L or an Ausf M . Thanks for clearing that up for me .
Thanks for the reminder on the water tight covers on the air vent grills.
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 10:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
think this depended on whether the Ausf N was converted from an Ausf L or an Ausf M .
It might have been adjusted slightly to fit, but its basically the same location ... maybe a slightly alterted position. I´ll include some scans later today, so you can see for yourself.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 11:41 PM UTC
Frank,
As allways thank you for you assistence
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 01:43 PM UTC
Hi Jerry. Here are the scans as promised .... sorry they´re a bit late though. Images for discussion only.
Can´t recommend the Achtung Panzer books enough, especially when chopping and changing between different variants.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 01:46 PM UTC
Just noticed that you need to remove the front-hatch hinges as well.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 12:13 AM UTC
Frank ,
thanks for these Images , they make it all cristal clear , I will start the reworking process tonight
Best wishes,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 - 09:20 AM UTC
The corrections to the lights and the access hatch hinges were removed - thanks Frank
The bosch lamps were taken from a a Panther kit in the stash :
Added the turret MG and mounted the extra armor
Started work on the turret skirt supports
Whill hopefully have time this weekend to get some more work done it
Very pleased with my progress so far.
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 - 11:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Very pleased with my progress so far.
Its looking great now Jerry. It´ll look great with the skirts in place ... the supports give it another dimension.
In the past, Ive often added just the handle part for tool clamps .... glued directly onto the plastic moulded clamp. Little strips of metal from a coke can or similar could be cut and bent easily into a "U" shape and added to your clamps. Very effective and simple addition.
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 06:36 AM UTC
Guys ,
Having fun with the PE turret skirts today ,
Here are come pictures of our progress,
the solder worked well it is my first proper success soldering PE parts.
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 05, 2008
KitMaker: 45 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 06:45 AM UTC
I'm sorry to interrupt your very interesting build, but the Ausf. N never had the additional armour on the gun mantlet due to weight issues. I hope you can still correct it without much problems.
Philipp
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 09:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm sorry to interrupt your very interesting build, but the Ausf. N never had the additional armour on the gun mantlet due to weight issues. I hope you can still correct it without much problems.
Philipp
Hi Philipp ,
thanks for your post , This is a most interesting comment, I have found one picture of a Ausf N with the 20th Pzr Div in 1943 with what appears to be additional armour on the Mantlet , however it does not have side skirts I suspect it could be a converted Ausf L . Also a line drawing in the Panzer III book published by Wydawnictwo Militaria (Warsaw)has a line drawing of a Ausf N with and Armoured mantlet and turret & Side Skirts, I will scan the Images for reference purposes and maybe somemore evidence migt appear to see if I can get awway witbit.
Many thanks for your comments they are a great help :
Best wishes,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 05, 2008
KitMaker: 45 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 02:59 AM UTC
Well, if you have a picture of a Panzer III N with the mantlet armour, that would be very different - I've never seen such a variation before, so I'd love to see that picture. My wild guess is that it was a field modification, but I'm absolutely not sure. Maybe they fittet the armour on the first few vehicles and then left it off as they discovered the weight problems? In any case, the vast majority of III N would have certainly lacked the extra armour.
I'm also building a Pz. III N at the moment, but I'm using the old Gunze kit with a lot of PE upgrades:
Best regards,
Philipp
#003
Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 05:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm sorry to interrupt your very interesting build, but the Ausf. N never had the additional armour on the gun mantlet due to weight issues. I hope you can still correct it without much problems.
I´d agree with Philip on this one. It would be better to remove it now, than have the extra armor draw attention later..
This is a passage written by Brian J. Tears
First let me say the Mantlet is the same on the L and the N the difference is in the Gun and the Recuperator housing . The recuperator housing on the N is not the small squarish one seen on the 50mm tanks . It is a larger fatter one more like a Pz IV housing it is more diamond shaped than square shaped and the four corners are champhered . Most III N's were made on the L chassis about 450 of the 660 made . Close to two hundred were built as M's while the very first few were J's and there were a small number of rebuilt hulls also made later .The L/N's are almost exact L's except for the gun and mount and the gun cleaning tubes on the rear fender. There may have been a small number of L/N's with the side escape hatches but very few if any as these were eliminated on the L's production run and the N's seem to be of later L runs . The M/N's are easy to tell apart from the L's from their wading muffler and the Bosch headlights now on the fenders and not on the bow as the J-L series . About half the M/N's had the later heavier armored one piece hatch cupola also .As for applique armor almost everyone had the drivers plate bolted on but maybe only a handful had the mantlet add on . There is a story that the mantlet add on was too heavy for the gun trunions on this tank so it was not used , but as I said this is a rumor as far as I know . I know of one picture with the mantlet add on armor and only one. I would like to see more if availiable though . Now schurzen first started life in like May 43 and about a third of the Pz III's at kursk had this added including the N's .Now normal Pz III production ended about the same time schurzen started so this was not a factory job normally . The schurzen that was on the Pz III's was applied at the workshop level and not the factory and who ever recieved it put it on so it is not done by tank type but by who got their hands on it. It seems by photo evidence that most of it went to the top units the SS and the Tiger units had alot of III units in them so these units seem to have the schurzen at Kursk the most and they also had the later III's L thru N in them . The other Panzer units got some but not as much depending on their importance I believe. So you could see schurzen on any mark of III but it was mostly the newer ones. Well I have babbled on long enough here. I hope this helps you , Good luck and Happy modeling . If you want to email me on the N's feel free to do so.
Check out the full thread
HERE, there might be somebody in the discussion you might recognise
IPMS Stockholm
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not that common"
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 06:39 AM UTC
Well,
There it is I have been faffing about attempting to build this model since 2005 !!!
Cheers Frank,
I guess the armored Mantlet has to go , Pity I think it looks cool ,
Philipp, Your Ausf N looks fantastic , thanks for all your help guys
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 04:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, if you have a picture of a Panzer III N with the mantlet armour, that would be very different - I've never seen such a variation before, so I'd love to see that picture. My wild guess is that it was a field modification, but I'm absolutely not sure. Maybe they fittet the armour on the first few vehicles and then left it off as they discovered the weight problems? In any case, the vast majority of III N would have certainly lacked the extra armour.
Best regards,
Philipp
Phillip
After much delay here is the Picture we were talking about a while a go. It appears to have a mantlet armor
Hope it is some use to you
Regards,
Jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Carlow, Ireland
Joined: June 05, 2006
KitMaker: 438 posts
Armorama: 352 posts
Posted: Monday, August 03, 2009 - 12:15 PM UTC
Off on my hols this week , so this baby is on hold for a couple of weeks , got some paint on it. will post some more pictures with paint on it once I get my camera back from the wife .
Cheers
All happy hols regards,
jerry
Stout, ‘Hey that Bailey crap, you got it amongst this stuff?’
Vandeleur, ‘When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?’
Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 05, 2008
KitMaker: 45 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 02:43 PM UTC
Thank you very much Jerry for that picture! This tank seems to be an absolute rarity... Obviously, even the most securely founded scientific facts can easily be undermined by reality
Thanks again for posting and happy holidays to you! (I just returned from mine...)
Philipp
