I've been reading a lot on this site about the accuracy of the DML/Dragon AFV kits (compared to Tamiya). All the kits I have so far are Tamiya and Academy. Can anyone recommend a good example of a WWII AFV so I can get an introduction to this manufacturer? This is probably a bit vague. Do they make a Panzer IV?
TIA...Kevin
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
DML/Dragon recommendation?
mac
Joined: April 16, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:14 AM UTC
tazz3
KitMaker: 62 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:34 AM UTC
yes i think dragon does make a panzer 4. they are good kits i built 2 of them years ago. just about any tank they make is nice 
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:40 AM UTC
DML/Dragon/Shanghai Dragon probably makes more Pz IVs than all other manufacturers combined (Tamiya, Academy, Italeri). I have not done a DML Pz IV yet, that IV chassis with its little road wheels is just not one of my favoite tasks. The only "dud" DML kit that I just did not like to build was the BMP-1 and BMP-2. The Panther I have looks good though.
KMM
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:52 PM UTC
Avoid the DML PzIVJ like the plague - its one of the worst kits I've ever built. Other than that, the three or four DML kits I've built have ranged from good to excellant. Here's a rundown...
Firefly Vc - Excellent, probably the best AFV kit I've built so far
Hummel - Very nice, good detail
Stug III C/D - pretty good, some fitting problems, but not bad.
And if you have a mind to do post WWII - I just got their M-26 Pershing and it looks excellent.
Other than that, I'd reccommend the Firefly - the individ tread might drive you nuts - but otherwise an incredible kit. I've also heard good thing about their Night Fighting Panther.
Firefly Vc - Excellent, probably the best AFV kit I've built so far
Hummel - Very nice, good detail
Stug III C/D - pretty good, some fitting problems, but not bad.
And if you have a mind to do post WWII - I just got their M-26 Pershing and it looks excellent.
Other than that, I'd reccommend the Firefly - the individ tread might drive you nuts - but otherwise an incredible kit. I've also heard good thing about their Night Fighting Panther.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 08:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Avoid the DML PzIVJ like the plague - its one of the worst kits I've ever built. Other than that, the three or four DML kits I've built have ranged from good to excellant. Here's a rundown...
Firefly Vc - Excellent, probably the best AFV kit I've built so far
Hummel - Very nice, good detail
Stug III C/D - pretty good, some fitting problems, but not bad.
And if you have a mind to do post WWII - I just got their M-26 Pershing and it looks excellent.
Other than that, I'd reccommend the Firefly - the individ tread might drive you nuts - but otherwise an incredible kit. I've also heard good thing about their Night Fighting Panther.
I go along with most of KMM's response. For my two cents, DML makes a fine Sherman series. I also believe this making the track has gone too far. It is always nice to do a Tamiya and see vinyl tarck occassionally. I have their Panther and thought it was a nice kit to complete.
DJ
pipesmoker
Joined: January 31, 2002
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 379 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 08:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Firefly Vc - Excellent, probably the best AFV kit I've built so far
KMM,
If you want to build a DML Firefly, get kit #6121. This is the corrected release of kit #6030.
Any of DML/Drangon Panzer III/StugIII kits are very good. Crisp moldings, minimal clean up, but use single link tracks.(you either love 'm or hate 'em).
They have also released several Jagdpanzer IV variants on the PzIV hull, but the only Panzer IV they have done is the IV J, which is supposed to be pretty bad. (Has anyone seen a review on this?)
tankshack
Joined: January 30, 2002
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 08:56 PM UTC
Come on guys... I think that you're being a little harsh and unrealistic in your expectations for these kits.
The DML Panzer IV series has been one of the consistently best series of models on the market today. The Panzer IV J in particular is a great example of how model companies should be doing things. If you trace the "history" of the kit, you'll find that the first release had some basic problems and accuracy issues. However, DML heard the MANY complaints and went back to the drawing board. They retooled the kit and have developed one of the best models on the market. If you want to be sure that you're getting the retooled kit, just by the Shanghai Dragon version of the kit. It's also cheaper
The DML kits all come with individual link tracks... admittedly, not every modeler's cup of tea... but, just the thing to make a nice model. The tracks in these kits are more accurate than the tracks in the same kits by Tamiya.
So, I would recommend the DML Panzer IV J and also, the Panzer IV F and G. The other kits that I'd recommend as a first try of DML quality are -
ANY of the 250 series halftracks
JagdPanzer IV L/70 or ?48
Panther G and now the new Panther A
Any of the Panzer III series, the K and the Artillery Observation Tank are very nice
T-34/85
SU-100
SU-85m
Watch out for the occasional reboxed kit from Alan like the Panzer IIC or the Su-76.. they are NOT representative samples of DML quality.
If you have questions about any of this, let me know.
Tim
The DML Panzer IV series has been one of the consistently best series of models on the market today. The Panzer IV J in particular is a great example of how model companies should be doing things. If you trace the "history" of the kit, you'll find that the first release had some basic problems and accuracy issues. However, DML heard the MANY complaints and went back to the drawing board. They retooled the kit and have developed one of the best models on the market. If you want to be sure that you're getting the retooled kit, just by the Shanghai Dragon version of the kit. It's also cheaper
The DML kits all come with individual link tracks... admittedly, not every modeler's cup of tea... but, just the thing to make a nice model. The tracks in these kits are more accurate than the tracks in the same kits by Tamiya.
So, I would recommend the DML Panzer IV J and also, the Panzer IV F and G. The other kits that I'd recommend as a first try of DML quality are -
ANY of the 250 series halftracks
JagdPanzer IV L/70 or ?48
Panther G and now the new Panther A
Any of the Panzer III series, the K and the Artillery Observation Tank are very nice
T-34/85
SU-100
SU-85m
Watch out for the occasional reboxed kit from Alan like the Panzer IIC or the Su-76.. they are NOT representative samples of DML quality.
If you have questions about any of this, let me know.
Tim
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 09:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Are you sure about this Ron? I am sure I have seen an F and a G as well. I tend to steer clear of the mark IV chassis so I do not know how good/bad they are. I do know that DML does go back and correct kits once complaints hit the street....They have also released several Jagdpanzer IV variants on the PzIV hull, but the only Panzer IV they have done is the IV J, which is supposed to be pretty bad. (Has anyone seen a review on this?)
herberta
Joined: March 06, 2002
KitMaker: 939 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:07 PM UTC
I have built DML's Stug IIIB, Stug IV Early, Brummbar Late, lots of figures and own far too many other kits of theirs! 
The key to the PzIV from DML is to get the retooled/new tooled version. The PzIVJ has been released as a Shanghai Dragon kit. This can be had for $16 to $20 in the US. The Stug IV I built was old tooling, and the Brummbar a retooled Shanghai Dragon offering. The tracks in the new tooled kit were better, the ejection pin marks on the rear hull plate are now on the inside (not a big deal if you are using zimmerit), the running gear is better, there are new tools...
Basically, the Shanghai Dragon releases of kits are the ones to get. They are much cheaper, and DML (unlike Tamiya) appear to listen to customer complaints/comments, and fix things! They added a tranny to the 250 kits, retooled their PzIV hull and running gear and so on.
The Jagdpanzer IV kits have the new tooling to start, and are very nice looking inthe box (still unbuilt by me!).
I'd recommend any of their PzIII kits for an experienced modeller wanting to try DML out. The Stug kits are very nice, and a bit easier to build. The PzIV based kits are a bit more fiddly, but still nice. And yes, you get PE in a lot of Dragon kits (not so much with Shanghai Dragon releases).
The key to the PzIV from DML is to get the retooled/new tooled version. The PzIVJ has been released as a Shanghai Dragon kit. This can be had for $16 to $20 in the US. The Stug IV I built was old tooling, and the Brummbar a retooled Shanghai Dragon offering. The tracks in the new tooled kit were better, the ejection pin marks on the rear hull plate are now on the inside (not a big deal if you are using zimmerit), the running gear is better, there are new tools...
Basically, the Shanghai Dragon releases of kits are the ones to get. They are much cheaper, and DML (unlike Tamiya) appear to listen to customer complaints/comments, and fix things! They added a tranny to the 250 kits, retooled their PzIV hull and running gear and so on.
The Jagdpanzer IV kits have the new tooling to start, and are very nice looking inthe box (still unbuilt by me!).
I'd recommend any of their PzIII kits for an experienced modeller wanting to try DML out. The Stug kits are very nice, and a bit easier to build. The PzIV based kits are a bit more fiddly, but still nice. And yes, you get PE in a lot of Dragon kits (not so much with Shanghai Dragon releases).
pipesmoker
Joined: January 31, 2002
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 379 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:51 PM UTC
Rob,
I don't recall any other DML PzIV kits (H,G etc..), but at my age I seem to be afflicted with CRS.
The jagdpanzer IV kits are pretty good. I've built the Jagdpanzer IV(A) Zwischenlösung and the Jgpzr IV/L48. Both pretty nice kits.
I'm old enough to know that I don't know everything......
I don't recall any other DML PzIV kits (H,G etc..), but at my age I seem to be afflicted with CRS.
The jagdpanzer IV kits are pretty good. I've built the Jagdpanzer IV(A) Zwischenlösung and the Jgpzr IV/L48. Both pretty nice kits.
I'm old enough to know that I don't know everything......
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've been reading a lot on this site about the accuracy of the DML/Dragon AFV kits (compared to Tamiya). All the kits I have so far are Tamiya and Academy. Can anyone recommend a good example of a WWII AFV so I can get an introduction to this manufacturer? This is probably a bit vague. Do they make a Panzer IV?
TIA...Kevin
Kevin--to answer your question, I recommend that you take one of their Sherman kits and give it a try. I would avoid the Firefly if you are not that familiar with AFVs. It can be tricky and you always want to start with something that you can look at later with pride.
DJ
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:13 PM UTC
Despite being new again to armor, I'll open my big mouth anyway. I am becoming familiar with the DML Sherman family, and can make a few observations so far:
1. Their HVSS suspension is a real pain in the butt to build (Eay Eight, Israeli vehicles) and has very fragile hull attachments due to their "one hull fits all" engineering for many of their Shermans. Painting is difficult, as there isn't a good way to attach the roadwheels after mounting the bogies to the hull.
2. I agree with the recommendations above about the updated Firefly kit--pretty good starting place. But the turret has several shape/accuracy problems and the barrel is too long--go with resin and aluminum, IMO. Also the lower hull is too long and needs to have surgery to fix that. Same applies to the M4A4 75mm tanks, too. But overall dimensions on the hull are pretty good, and so is the cast texture.
3. The Firefly and M4A4 have the glaring omission of NO periscope guards for the hatches. Yeah, plastic guards are overscale and tough to get off the sprues cleanly but---I don't like being forced to get a PE set to fix that. I'd like the option of living with overscale plastic just to be able to build a closed-hatch OOB vehicle sometimes.
4. Turrets and hulls have different sized turret rings across the family. And I don't think any of them are real close to scale. That aside, not having them consistent makes it more difficult to mix and match parts across the model range to create a specific vehicle.
Enough ranting for now; if something else comes along I'll spout off again!
Greg
1. Their HVSS suspension is a real pain in the butt to build (Eay Eight, Israeli vehicles) and has very fragile hull attachments due to their "one hull fits all" engineering for many of their Shermans. Painting is difficult, as there isn't a good way to attach the roadwheels after mounting the bogies to the hull.
2. I agree with the recommendations above about the updated Firefly kit--pretty good starting place. But the turret has several shape/accuracy problems and the barrel is too long--go with resin and aluminum, IMO. Also the lower hull is too long and needs to have surgery to fix that. Same applies to the M4A4 75mm tanks, too. But overall dimensions on the hull are pretty good, and so is the cast texture.
3. The Firefly and M4A4 have the glaring omission of NO periscope guards for the hatches. Yeah, plastic guards are overscale and tough to get off the sprues cleanly but---I don't like being forced to get a PE set to fix that. I'd like the option of living with overscale plastic just to be able to build a closed-hatch OOB vehicle sometimes.
4. Turrets and hulls have different sized turret rings across the family. And I don't think any of them are real close to scale. That aside, not having them consistent makes it more difficult to mix and match parts across the model range to create a specific vehicle.
Enough ranting for now; if something else comes along I'll spout off again!
Greg
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:17 PM UTC
Greg--for someone "new" to armor modeling you certainly have your measurements in the forefront of your mind. Are you an architect?
DJ
DJ
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:35 PM UTC
Not an architect., Colonel. Hard to say what I am, really. Educated as a historian and teacher some years ago. Been working in an obscure corner of the semiconductor field for a little over a decade, a place where large dimensions are measured in thousandths of an inch and little ones in millionths. I have a mind that is naturally suited to memorization of trivia, to the chagrin of others who ask a seemingly simple question and recieve a master's thesis in return (hey, much like this post!). A modeler, obviously, one returning to armor after two decades of airplanes. Also an enthusiast for a certain German automaker from Stuttgart whose emblem is a three pointed star; an owner who enjoys amateur motorsports with his car and might soon translate that interest into another career change. I guess that beneath all this is an interest in the hitory and a penchant for accurate representation of same. And perhaps a bit of lurking engineer in there, despite an intolerance for higher mathematics. All in all, a pretty weird guy!
Greg
Greg
Tiger1
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 171 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:43 PM UTC
I built DML's Panzer IV Ausf. J a while back, and it was a really good kit. Sabot is on the money when he said that DML makes the most varients of the Panzer IV out of all the maufacturers. I personally prefer Tamiya's Panzer IV Ausf J though. I feel it has a better fit. I know that Tamiya makes the Panzer IV Ausf. D, H, and J.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not an architect., Colonel. Hard to say what I am, really. Educated as a historian and teacher some years ago. Been working in an obscure corner of the semiconductor field for a little over a decade, a place where large dimensions are measured in thousandths of an inch and little ones in millionths. I have a mind that is naturally suited to memorization of trivia, to the chagrin of others who ask a seemingly simple question and recieve a master's thesis in return (hey, much like this post!). A modeler, obviously, one returning to armor after two decades of airplanes. Also an enthusiast for a certain German automaker from Stuttgart whose emblem is a three pointed star; an owner who enjoys amateur motorsports with his car and might soon translate that interest into another career change. I guess that beneath all this is an interest in the hitory and a penchant for accurate representation of same. And perhaps a bit of lurking engineer in there, despite an intolerance for higher mathematics. All in all, a pretty weird guy!
Greg
Greg---let me know if your historical interest include the Battle of the Bulge. If so, we can drop down to the history discussion forum and share thoughts and material.
DJ
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:24 AM UTC
Battle of the Bulge? Yeah, just a little bit! (tongue firmly in cheek) Books, wargames, yada yada...lead on, Colonel!
Greg
Greg
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:27 AM UTC
Greg--I walked every square inch of that area. Wrote several articles. I will post a topic to the History Discussion Forum.
DJ
DJ
KMM
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 02:49 AM UTC
I wonder if I got the old release of the DML PzIVJ - I built it about a year ago. My biggest complaint wasn't the accuracy or fitting of the model itself, what I hated was the sprues. The points where the sprues attached to the parts were some of thickest I've ever seen. This made it ridiculously easy to snap smaller parts when cutting them off or cleaning themn up. I think I had to repair every turret schurzen bracket because I broke them - even when cutting with a really sharp razor knife. I've heard a lot of DML kits used to have this problem, but have noticed a great improvement in the kits I've built since.
ponysoldier
Joined: March 13, 2002
KitMaker: 223 posts
Armorama: 110 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 03:24 AM UTC
While Im not into early afv. I"ve built 4 of the dragon kits,two m60s and a 113 fitter
except for some heavy sprue they fit well and are reasonably to scale.
I"d keep it simple have fun and have something you can look at and enjoy.
I would also like that little talk in history.
The horse The gun The man
ponysoldier
except for some heavy sprue they fit well and are reasonably to scale.
I"d keep it simple have fun and have something you can look at and enjoy.
I would also like that little talk in history.
The horse The gun The man
ponysoldier
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 03:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Are you sure these are Dragon kits? I wasn't aware they did an M-60 series or an M113. They've got nice M1A1s though.While Im not into early afv. I"ve built 4 of the dragon kits,two m60s and a 113 fitter
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 07:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
CRS, yes I get that too, but for some reason I recall useless information...I had to look this stuff up in an old Squadron catalog:Rob,
I don't recall any other DML PzIV kits (H,G etc..), but at my age I seem to be afflicted with CRS.....
6022--Panzer IV J Late
9019--Panzer IV Ausf F2
9020--Panzer IV Ausf G
9044--Panzer IV Ausf F1 Afrika Korps
6080--Panzer IV Ausf J Late (re-tooled)
But since I don't do Panzer IVs, I don't know their quality.
pipesmoker
Joined: January 31, 2002
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 379 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 08:28 AM UTC
You are correct Rob.
I just looked in my stash and there sits the Dragon Pz IV F2 and on my shopping list is the F!. Man, my memory is shot...CRS...LOL
Hmmmm....I wonder how their Pz IV G is....?
I just looked in my stash and there sits the Dragon Pz IV F2 and on my shopping list is the F!. Man, my memory is shot...CRS...LOL
Hmmmm....I wonder how their Pz IV G is....?
herberta
Joined: March 06, 2002
KitMaker: 939 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 10:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hmmmm....I wonder how their Pz IV G is....?
expensive right now!!
People are selling them like they're collectors items on EBay.
I read a rumor that it will be rereleased soon. I don't think it has been "retooled" yet.
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 07:36 PM UTC
I have some information that you guys might find useful. The reason that DML kits are expensive right now is that DML stopped producing their line of plastic in favor of those big GI Joe-like dolls that they make. Apparently, they are cleaning up with those and decided to concentrate all of their efforts for the better part of last year on making them. I called the US importer of DML kits and he said that they have re-started production on their plastic kits and have a "very ambitious" plan this year for making them so the prices should come down as the availability goes up later this year.
About DML kits: I haven't found a DML kit that I don't like (I haven't done the old Pz IV J though). I even liked the BMP-1 and BMP-2, but I guess that is because those vehicles fasinate me and I enjoyed the challenge of making the kits look good. Like someone said earlier, watch for the reboxed Alan kits as they aren't DML quality, but the Pz II Ausf. C is a good kit none the less.
About DML kits: I haven't found a DML kit that I don't like (I haven't done the old Pz IV J though). I even liked the BMP-1 and BMP-2, but I guess that is because those vehicles fasinate me and I enjoyed the challenge of making the kits look good. Like someone said earlier, watch for the reboxed Alan kits as they aren't DML quality, but the Pz II Ausf. C is a good kit none the less.
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.