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Constructive Feedback
For in-progress or completed build photos. Give and get contructive feedback!
For in-progress or completed build photos. Give and get contructive feedback!
Hosted by Darren Baker, Dave O'Meara
M113 Tread
19Delta
Joined: June 18, 2003
KitMaker: 101 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 04:14 AM UTC
Let Me Know What You Think..
Before..
After..
Before..
After..
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 05:23 AM UTC
Wow! What a difference, very nice work...
Here is a question for you - how will you weather the tracks? I guess they will be shiny in places as this is a desert unit?
Scott
Here is a question for you - how will you weather the tracks? I guess they will be shiny in places as this is a desert unit?
Scott
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:24 AM UTC
Now that's a world of difference 19D!!! Very nice job, for I believe, your first indi. track build.?!There's no comparison between the two - before and after. Bravo! 
Was it worth it in your opinion?
Was it worth it in your opinion?
animal
KitMaker: 4,503 posts
Armorama: 3,159 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:32 AM UTC
BRAVO!!! Now that's master quality. Chipping away the decal to mirror the paint chip is right on. When I first looked at the two photos before reading the text I thought the top photo was of your model and the bottom one of the actual vehicle that it was copied after. Massive improvement My hats off to you sir Three Cheers and a salute. 
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:41 AM UTC
Ahhhh..... Much better!!! Excellent model too!!
slodder
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
Armorama: 7,138 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:43 AM UTC
Wow - worth the time, money, and effort. Looks very good.
cfbush2000
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,796 posts
Armorama: 1,207 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:47 AM UTC
Very nice work. I know how frustrated you were, but you really pulled it together.
Good job !
Good job !
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Armorama: 3,293 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 06:54 AM UTC
Much nicer looking kit. I would try to flatten out the tracks along the ground, if possible.
Part-timer
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 07:02 AM UTC
Wow, very nice. Huge improvement over the original rubber-band tracks. One tiny suggestion: it looks like there are some kinks in the tracks at the top towards the rear of the vehicle. If possible, it might be better to pull those down into a smoother sag. Of course, the tracks on the real vehicle might be stiff enough to hold such kinks.
Regardless, great work. The wash on the road wheels is quite good.
Regardless, great work. The wash on the road wheels is quite good.
scoccia
Joined: September 02, 2002
KitMaker: 2,606 posts
Armorama: 1,721 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 07:42 AM UTC
Here it is!!! Huge improvement, your "fitter" really deserved it!!!
Ciao
Ciao
SniperSoldier
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,638 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 09:34 AM UTC
EXCELLENT PAINTWORK 19DELTA - CONGRATS
ROBERTO
ROBERTO
keenan
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
Armorama: 2,844 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 09:58 AM UTC
I love the new tracks. They look way better than other set. One suggestion: There is a big obvious seam on the tank for the torch, the one towards the rear. It shows up way better in the second picture than than it does in the first. Also, I think those tanks should be painted a standard colors, I think green and red, but I am not sure. At any rate, great job updating the tracks.
Shaun
Shaun
Ronald_Kok
Joined: September 27, 2002
KitMaker: 484 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 09:58 AM UTC
Yess thats a Fitter good work.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 10:22 AM UTC
Well... Guys, please don't crucify me for this post, but this forum is also to let us all learn on our mistakes, right? So I agree with everyone that weathering looks very good and generally everything above tracks is great, but...
19Delta, in the previous thread you've wrote: "I assembled the individual tracks and they fit perfectly! and the suspension arms are in the correct spot, its the rubber tracks that are goofed up. "
I'm really sorry to prove you wrong
. Unfortunatelly suspension arms are not in the correct spot, and actually rubber tracks are fine. Here is the proof:
On the picture below is your model on the right, and my model on the left. This is of course also Academy M113. Wheels are just dry fitted, and I installed them exactly as you did. Red lines show that my model is assembled the same way as yours is.
Now, the next picture shows how the model should be correctly assembled:
Do you see the difference? Shock absorbers are now almost completely hidden behind wheels, just the way they should be.
Next picture shows the difference - front wheels are in wrong position, rear two are installed correctly.
Now, what was your mistake? Take a look at the part of instructions below:
On the hull, in the spot where suspension arm is to be attached, there are two pins. One larger and one smaller. What you did was: you put the larger pin correctly in the hole in suspension arm, but then placed the whole suspension arm UNDER the smaller pin. Wrong! The suspension bar should be installed on the small pin! There is a second hole on the back of each arm, just for this purpose.
If you install all the arms correctly, rubber tracks fit just fine.
And one suggestion regarding the individual tracks. When you assemble this kind of plastic links it is good to first assemble links on flat surface and glue with liquid cement. Then you leave this assembly for a couple of minutes, or even longer, to let the glue dry a little. Then while the glued links are still flexible, but glue is already keeping them together, you can shape the whole assembly to the desired shape. This way you avoid such "wavy" and "kinky" look, and can achieve natural smooth sag. Only links directly around sprocket and idler wheels should be glued on wheels, as the curvature is too big here for the above method to give good clean results.
Anyway, you did a great job with your model, and don't worry about these mistakes you made. We all do them from time to time! :-)
Keep up a good work!
Best Regards,
Pawel
19Delta, in the previous thread you've wrote: "I assembled the individual tracks and they fit perfectly! and the suspension arms are in the correct spot, its the rubber tracks that are goofed up. "
I'm really sorry to prove you wrong
. Unfortunatelly suspension arms are not in the correct spot, and actually rubber tracks are fine. Here is the proof:On the picture below is your model on the right, and my model on the left. This is of course also Academy M113. Wheels are just dry fitted, and I installed them exactly as you did. Red lines show that my model is assembled the same way as yours is.
Now, the next picture shows how the model should be correctly assembled:
Do you see the difference? Shock absorbers are now almost completely hidden behind wheels, just the way they should be.
Next picture shows the difference - front wheels are in wrong position, rear two are installed correctly.
Now, what was your mistake? Take a look at the part of instructions below:
On the hull, in the spot where suspension arm is to be attached, there are two pins. One larger and one smaller. What you did was: you put the larger pin correctly in the hole in suspension arm, but then placed the whole suspension arm UNDER the smaller pin. Wrong! The suspension bar should be installed on the small pin! There is a second hole on the back of each arm, just for this purpose.
If you install all the arms correctly, rubber tracks fit just fine.
And one suggestion regarding the individual tracks. When you assemble this kind of plastic links it is good to first assemble links on flat surface and glue with liquid cement. Then you leave this assembly for a couple of minutes, or even longer, to let the glue dry a little. Then while the glued links are still flexible, but glue is already keeping them together, you can shape the whole assembly to the desired shape. This way you avoid such "wavy" and "kinky" look, and can achieve natural smooth sag. Only links directly around sprocket and idler wheels should be glued on wheels, as the curvature is too big here for the above method to give good clean results.
Anyway, you did a great job with your model, and don't worry about these mistakes you made. We all do them from time to time! :-)
Keep up a good work!
Best Regards,
Pawel
19Delta
Joined: June 18, 2003
KitMaker: 101 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 10:38 AM UTC
Vodnik, Thanks for that I really need that! dont worry about proving me wrong. The instruction picture show me exactly where i went wrong.Theres a point where part of the suspension arms go into, well I thought that point was a guide of sorts. kind of like
: / . : instead of : / : like yours is. I really appreciate it, but I think im just going to keep it the way it is, since Ive broken quite a few of them already. Vodnik, can I like have you near me when Im building my models cause your a saint. THANKS!!!!
: / . : instead of : / : like yours is. I really appreciate it, but I think im just going to keep it the way it is, since Ive broken quite a few of them already. Vodnik, can I like have you near me when Im building my models cause your a saint. THANKS!!!!
steve203
Joined: May 25, 2003
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 01:24 PM UTC
Hey, big difference.That looks alot better. Keep up the good work.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 08:05 PM UTC
rotc_wildcat,
Nitpicking? Rivet counting? Showing that the whole suspension is incorrectly installed is nitpicking?...
I only did what everyone is supposed to do on this forum: "provide real constructive criticism". Actually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum.
Regards,
Pawel
Nitpicking? Rivet counting? Showing that the whole suspension is incorrectly installed is nitpicking?...
I only did what everyone is supposed to do on this forum: "provide real constructive criticism". Actually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum.
Regards,
Pawel
WeWillHold
Joined: April 17, 2002
KitMaker: 2,314 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 02:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Actually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum.
Interesting comment.
Constructive comments can include a number of things, including for example, the suspension help provided in this thread, but also praise for work well done.
Hopefully, complimenting a modelers workmanship, (in any RR thread) is not "against the rules".
ps: 19, congrats on your build.
Steve
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 03:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Actually, if you read Jim's guidance on posting to this forum, it is. His guidance is accessible by clicking on the "read this" hyperlink right under the Rivet Review Board title. Here is an except, pay close attention to the second sentence, especially the part that starts with the word "but":Quoted TextActually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum.
Interesting comment.
Constructive comments can include a number of things, including for example, the suspension help provided in this thread, but also praise for work well done.
Hopefully, complimenting a modelers workmanship, (in any RR thread) is not "against the rules".
To those responding:
You are expected to provide real constructive criticism. You can say something looks good, but (as almost nothing is perfect) you'll need to also point out whatever elements you see that could use improvement or you find some issue with. Don't just say something is too "weathered", instead specify what areas are particularly causing you to say that. Also try to provide some ideas on how that aspect might be improved. We are looking for helpful comments here, not hurtful ones. Flame-bait or other harrassing posts will be removed without notice.
Thanks,
Jim
Personally, I think Pawel's criticism is spot on and done in a very courteous and professional manner. Even more so when you take into account that American English is not his first language. Definitely not rivet counting here, he's pointing out a mistake in assembly.
I think the weathering and paint chipping is well done. As far as oxygen and acetylene tanks, in the US they are usually green and yellow, but I've just received an M88A1 with the tank painted the same color as the rest of the vehicle (forest green). I guess either way would be OK, based on photos or country rules regarding camouflage vs. safety.
My observation on the tracks, I think the individual links are too loose. I'm around these vehicles on a daily basis for almost 2 decades. Bottom run should be almost totally flat, even if it was parked on rocky terrain. Also there is too much slack around the drive sprocket.
SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
Armorama: 2,388 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 03:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextActually, if you read Jim's guidance on posting to this forum, it is. His guidance is accessible by clicking on the "read this" hyperlink right under the Rivet Review Board title. Here is an except, pay close attention to the second sentence, especially the part that starts with the word "but":Quoted TextActually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum.
Interesting comment.
Constructive comments can include a number of things, including for example, the suspension help provided in this thread, but also praise for work well done.
Hopefully, complimenting a modelers workmanship, (in any RR thread) is not "against the rules".
To those responding:
You are expected to provide real constructive criticism. You can say something looks good, but (as almost nothing is perfect) you'll need to also point out whatever elements you see that could use improvement or you find some issue with. Don't just say something is too "weathered", instead specify what areas are particularly causing you to say that. Also try to provide some ideas on how that aspect might be improved. We are looking for helpful comments here, not hurtful ones. Flame-bait or other harrassing posts will be removed without notice.
Thanks,
Jim
Personally, I think Pawel's criticism is spot on and done in a very courteous and professional manner. Even more so when you take into account that American English is not his first language. Definitely not rivet counting here, he's pointing out a mistake in assembly.
I think the weathering and paint chipping is well done. As far as oxygen and acetylene tanks, in the US they are usually green and yellow, but I've just received an M88A1 with the tank painted the same color as the rest of the vehicle (forest green). I guess either way would be OK, based on photos or country rules regarding camouflage vs. safety.
My observation on the tracks, I think the individual links are too loose. I'm around these vehicles on a daily basis for almost 2 decades. Bottom run should be almost totally flat, even if it was parked on rocky terrain. Also there is too much slack around the drive sprocket.
WOW. Lord WWH and Lord Sabot, you both get a point here. Tell you guys the truth, I never even read the rules for the rivet review. I always hold a belief that If I handle things with my common senses and the way I like to be treated, then rules are really unnecessary for me. So far So Good Guys. Just behave how you behave in the real world here. I had received numberless PM or email on the side besides the comments I got from Rivet Review tell me what I can do to improve my models, and I feel really good about it. But I think people may react to things differently.
Take me as an example, I am vain as hell, to tell you the truth, I care about how people see my model, I count how many views I have and how many comments I got both just a little praise of some length criticism. I like it, it makes me feel good, sometimes too good. #:-) But this is what I like about this site, people are friendly, they give you a pat on the back, and then tell you nicely what you can do to Improve your model.
I am sure that Delta as many other serious modeler here, invested great deal of time/effort/money on a kit, and feel quite good about it, so he showed it here, I for one, think it's awesome. But of course Lord Sabot, I have no such extensive knowledge comes to M113. So people say nice things about it, I think it's great. What Pawell had provided is great information, but if he could phrase it in a more soft way then it will be well received.
If people did this to me on my first model displayed publicly, it would probably killed my interest in modeling at all.
This is the most friendly site in the world, if you ask me, I choose friendliness over professionsm any time.
My 2 cents.
WeWillHold
Joined: April 17, 2002
KitMaker: 2,314 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 04:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You are expected to provide real constructive criticism. You can say something looks good, but (as almost nothing is perfect) you'll need to also point out whatever elements you see that could use improvement or you find some issue with.
Couldn't agree more, especially with the "You can say something looks good..." part. :-) (which was the point of my earlier post about it not being against the rules). Hope this helps.
ps: I think it's probably for the best that I am done with this thread (lol). Take care.
Steve
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 07:58 AM UTC
Steve,
Sure you can say something looks good! That's why I wrote "Actually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum." The word "only" is the most important here. And I belive that I explained the mistake made in the model as soft as possible, at least with my English. I also wrote that the model looks great, but unfortunately only from the tracks up. Sorry, couldn't honestly write anything else.
Anyway, in a minute I will create a new thread about my progress in building M923A1 truck. You can go there and count my rivets as a revenge
Rgds,
Pawel
Sure you can say something looks good! That's why I wrote "Actually posts that only say how great the model is are against the rules of this forum." The word "only" is the most important here. And I belive that I explained the mistake made in the model as soft as possible, at least with my English. I also wrote that the model looks great, but unfortunately only from the tracks up. Sorry, couldn't honestly write anything else.
Anyway, in a minute I will create a new thread about my progress in building M923A1 truck. You can go there and count my rivets as a revenge
Rgds,
Pawel
19Delta
Joined: June 18, 2003
KitMaker: 101 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 08:38 AM UTC
Thanks for all of the comments on the tread and the model it self. Im learning to become a good modeler, im only 18 years old and for me to be putting out models at this kind of quality at the rate im doing them at, which is 5 in 4 weeks, isnt bad. I know where my faults are now, mainly looking at the directions closely, and looking at reference pictures to get a really good idea of how the actual vehicle looked and carried its self. Vodnik helped me out with the suspension problem, all though he could have done it in a little bette way, he still helped me out. all he needed to do is say hey, check out the suspension arms. theres a pin it should be in and it looks like its not in, rather next to it, just cared to help you out. something like that woud have made me feel alittle bit better instead of feeling like i cant do anything right at this hobby. Everyone on Armorama has done me much good, you should have seen my models before i started coming here. Ill post a pic sometime before/after type deal.
Thank you for everything you all have done for me,
I TRUELY! appreciate it.
James
Thank you for everything you all have done for me,
I TRUELY! appreciate it.
James
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 08:52 AM UTC
James,
I'm really sorry that you felt this way about my post. But actually the only reason I did it my way, not the way you just suggested, is because in previous thread about your model someone already told you that you made a mistake incorrectly installing the suspension arms! And only because later you wrote that your suspension was correct, while in fact the person who first noticed the problem was right. That's why I felt that I not only need to tell you about the problem, as someone already did it before, but also convince you that I'm right, by providing evidence. This resulted in my post in its so critisized form.
Once again I must write what I already wrote before - you model, from the tracks up looks great, and this means that you did great job with painting and weathering. All you need to do now is, exactly as you wrote, pay more attention to instructions and references and with these painting skills you have, you will soon produce real masterpieces!
Best Regards,
Pawel
I'm really sorry that you felt this way about my post. But actually the only reason I did it my way, not the way you just suggested, is because in previous thread about your model someone already told you that you made a mistake incorrectly installing the suspension arms! And only because later you wrote that your suspension was correct, while in fact the person who first noticed the problem was right. That's why I felt that I not only need to tell you about the problem, as someone already did it before, but also convince you that I'm right, by providing evidence. This resulted in my post in its so critisized form.
Once again I must write what I already wrote before - you model, from the tracks up looks great, and this means that you did great job with painting and weathering. All you need to do now is, exactly as you wrote, pay more attention to instructions and references and with these painting skills you have, you will soon produce real masterpieces!
Best Regards,
Pawel
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
Armorama: 2,782 posts
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2003 - 12:57 PM UTC
Pawel,thanks for including a how to picture.It is one thing to offer constructive criticism,and better to SHOW a fix.There are many makes of 113 family vehicles out there,and having an old hand provide a photo of a tricky point in the assembly of them,is a big help to all the newbies who may have a nagging question in the back of their minds. (++) (++) (++)
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