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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Opel Blitz combo
gremlinz
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Hamilton, New Zealand
Joined: February 07, 2009
KitMaker: 795 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 08:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dean

Whilst we are talking theory and possibilities, and taking hopefully this all in the light hearted vein it should be, could I just point out a few things which I disagree with in your ideas and comments.

Keeping that platform stable is of course essential, but the minute you "mount" the gun of this size and power to the chassis you are exerting all the forces through that chassis, and the Opel 's would simply not be up to it, for all the reasons outlined by Gerald in his post on the RSO. It's worth noting that all the pictures I've seen of the Flak 20mm on the Opel don't really "mount" the gun to the truck. It's kept in its original mount which is then held in place by a fixing around the foot.

or the same but mounted on a skid.

so the energy is held within the guns original mounting as it would be on the ground.

I've yet to see a photograph of the 20mm directly fixed into the cargo bed of the Blitz, but I'm happy to be shown one and corrected, no problem.

Your point about comparison of the Flak 88 is correct in that the 88 was used against aircraft moving across the sky and required rapid fire, but tanks are not exactly slow moving across ground, can be difficult to hit due to their movement over terrain and the big difference is usually the planes don't fire back at the 88 but the tanks certainly do against antitank guns Which brings me to my next point, the increased height the gun is at now at makes it a much easier and bigger target than the purposely made low silhouette of the original gun carriage. Far to visible or difficult to hide than the standard configuration.

Even discounting all that it's still got to be easier to drag a gun with dodgy wheels, even repair or replace the gun carriage, than try to fix the thing to a flimsy Opel Blitz.. Also then work out where to store the ammo, which would normally be carried by the towing vehicle.

The only thing I've seen which has some comparison to this is the Portee arrangement, but note again the gun remains on its wheeled mounting.

All good fun.

Alan



Yeah I just find it an interesting possibility to consider. I sort of like the idea of putting yourself in the position of being a workshop manager who has someone come to you and say "I have a gun with no wheels, what can you put it on ?". Blame it on growing up with movies like Mad Max and Battletruck where the theory is "how mean can you make a vehicle look".

What I was getting at with the FlaK comparrison is a 2cm/3.7cm FlaK has is rapid fire so there's no recoverytime between shots requiring a much stabler platform, with an AT gun you have that 5-10 seconds between shots to allow the recoil from the previous shot to dissipitate.

The main problem with the Opel is the deck is designed to handle weight, not lateral shear so i suspect the mounting brackets for the deck would go long before the chassis did.

In theory it's doable but again it's the practicalities in wartime that are against the idea.

To mount it and counteract the shearing forces of the recoil you'd need to remove the deck, weld flat plate directly to the chassis which gives you a lower profile, stronger mount and distributes the shear force over a larger contact area. Then remove the wheels and trails from the gun, mount it facing rearward and ideally put a heavy duty spring each side between the ends of the axle and bumpstops on the truck. You'd also need to knock up some kind of shell deflector like on a tank gun.

Again you'd have a limited field of fire so you'd end up with an unarmoured StuG that has to attack in reverse. It wouldn't be ideal and it wouldn't last forever but it would do as a stop-gap field knock up.

That is however a lot of work just to get an AT gun mobile whilst taking a truck out of action. Personally I'd probably just suggest rigging up new wheels for the gun even if I just had to bolt it into a haycart to get it from A to B.

gremlinz
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Hamilton, New Zealand
Joined: February 07, 2009
KitMaker: 795 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 08:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Absolutely brilliant!!!!!! Does this mean a Zunndap with a Nebelwerfer or drilling mount mounted on the sidecar is out of the question?



Talk to American Chopper, maybe they could do a trike with a drilling in the back, or a Zundap with a Nebelwerfer in place of the sidecar instead of mounted on it.

Actually considering the forays into RC why didn't we ever see a RC kubel with a Nebelwerfer in it ?
scgatgbi
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Florida, United States
Joined: May 28, 2009
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 08:50 AM UTC
Since I contributed to that total off topic binge I should add something actually usefull here. A little while ago I started screwing around with mounting a Pak40 on the Maultier & used the mounting system for the Sdkfz 251/22 as inspiration (mounted to fire forwards over the hood). From a functionality standpoint it appeared that it would work just fine (in a purely hypothetical design of course). But realistically speaking, the chassis & suspension would require some severe reinforcement to handle the strain of the recoil. But it seemed more feasable than using the opel Blitz. The tracks would provide more stability & wouldn't totally wreck the brakes after firing like it would on the Opel Blitz.. Never did actually finish it though.
robbin
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2006
KitMaker: 30 posts
Armorama: 22 posts
Posted: Friday, November 06, 2009 - 05:59 AM UTC
Once again I have no photographic evidence of this combination. I just know the germans were desperate to deploy a.t. guns any way they could.But because of recoil problems while firing to the side this combo just would not have been feasible.I appreciate everyone`s input. Thanks
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 05:55 AM UTC
Since the payload rating of the Blitz was 3 tons (Maultier 2 tons) and the PAK 40 weighed 1.5 tons, the carrying of a full PAK 40 with wheels en portee would thereotically be possible. However for the reasons outlined above (stress on vehicle, concealment of weapon) it would make sense to emplace the weapon for firing. The British mounting of A/T weapons on trucks were mainly for ease of transport in the desert. The practice began due to the 2 Pdr guns being damaged by being towed over rough ground and continued with the 6 Pdrs as shown in the photo. Flak guns cause problems because they are fired at high angles in rapid fire mode. There were some 88mm guns mounted on half tracks for the French campaign, but I believe these were 12 tonners.
robbin
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2006
KitMaker: 30 posts
Armorama: 22 posts
Posted: Monday, November 09, 2009 - 05:43 AM UTC
Nice combination.Would make a great What -If.Trouble is the recoil would wreck havock with the brakes.
vettejack
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 - 01:19 AM UTC
If the Russians can mount a 76.2 howitzer on a Gaz AAA truck, then I think it would be feasible to mount the Pak 40 on an Opel...whether a Blitz or Maultier. Granted...the Gaz AAA is a dual rear axle vehicle, but I think the Opel is a more robust platform IMHO. And it looks like the Germans also successfully mounted a 3.7 flak in the bed of either a L4500 Maultier and a Opel Maultier...which is certain to 'overload' even a robust vehicle as the L4500 or the Opel Maultier was.

Take a look at my photo album with the GAZ AAA shown with the 76.2 mount.







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