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Opel Blitz combo
robbin
Joined: August 22, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 05:30 AM UTC
I have thought of combining the Opel Blitz with the pak40 75m.m. gun.I have not been able to find pictures of all the combinations used on this vehicle.Plus I don`t know if this would be feasible because of the weight of the gun and when firing to the side they would have problems because of recoil.Any one have any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks.
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:49 AM UTC
Gun platforms need to be stable, it's why halftracks make better ones than trucks. The Mercedes 4500, for example, was used as a gun platform, but it required bracing. That's what limited most attempts to put heaters on trucks.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 08:09 AM UTC
Hi
It might well be capable of towing the gun but it wouldn't hold up as a platform for mounting the gun in the same way as a Flak gun such as the 20mm. The smallest vehicle I've seen a Pak mounted to is the little RSO, but note its a tracked vehicle and I do wonder how successful it actually turned out as a gun platform.
Alan
It might well be capable of towing the gun but it wouldn't hold up as a platform for mounting the gun in the same way as a Flak gun such as the 20mm. The smallest vehicle I've seen a Pak mounted to is the little RSO, but note its a tracked vehicle and I do wonder how successful it actually turned out as a gun platform.
Alan
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 09:20 AM UTC
This photo from Wiener Modellbau Manufaktur shows what I mean about the need for bracing on the 37mm FlaK mounted on a Mercedes 4500L:
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:29 AM UTC
About the RSO/PAK 40 combo, 60 of these were built. But they were not very succesful, not because of any instability or something like that, but because they were slow and very, very noisy.
While the Blitz itself wouldn't be a proper platform, the Maultier might have been. But I can't imagine it ever have been tried.
The 251 with PAK 40 was a better solution.
While the Blitz itself wouldn't be a proper platform, the Maultier might have been. But I can't imagine it ever have been tried.
The 251 with PAK 40 was a better solution.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
While the Blitz itself wouldn't be a proper platform, the Maultier might have been. But I can't imagine it ever have been tried.
I've read that the conversion of the Blitz from standard truck to Maultier actually reduced its weight carrying capacity. I should imagine it was the increased chassis weight brought about by the tracks and roadwheels having an effect on the engine and transmissions power to weight ratio.
Alan
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This photo from Wiener Modellbau Manufaktur shows what I mean about the need for bracing on the 37mm FlaK mounted on a Mercedes 4500L:
So as you can see from Bill's example, a 37mm needed a bigger truck such as the Merc and bracing to operate, so a Blitz with a 75mm gun with all its recoil etc. wasn't really on the cards.
Alan
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:33 AM UTC
Well... that is, if you intend to use the platform more than once.
It is a fact that especially during the Berlin fighting, the need was there to have mobile guns, just to have guns get to defense positions. Once there, they would be used until ammo was depleted or the position overrun.
The Pz-II chassis with 88mm FlaK gun is a good example of this use. The combination was deemed expendable as long as it got the gun to the place it needed to be.
It is a fact that especially during the Berlin fighting, the need was there to have mobile guns, just to have guns get to defense positions. Once there, they would be used until ammo was depleted or the position overrun.
The Pz-II chassis with 88mm FlaK gun is a good example of this use. The combination was deemed expendable as long as it got the gun to the place it needed to be.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well... that is, if you intend to use the platform more than once.
It is a fact that especially during the Berlin fighting, the need was there to have mobile guns, just to have guns get to defense positions. Once there, they would be used until ammo was depleted or the position overrun.
The Pz-II chassis with 88mm FlaK gun is a good example of this use. The combination was deemed expendable as long as it got the gun to the place it needed to be.
An extreme case if you wanted to quote as an example I'd have thought.
In any case getting a Pak 75mm which was equipped already with permanent wheeled carriage to a position by towing would be easy enough to do even for a vehicle like say the Blitz and once in position its low profile would be a distinct advantage, as it had shown throughout the war.
The 88 fitted to the Pz-II chassis could have been down to several reasons, although I don't disagree it was brought about by the desperate circumstances that the rapidly crumbling Nazi regime found itself in that such an adaptation and methodology took place.
Alan
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It is a fact that especially during the Berlin fighting, the need was there to have mobile guns, just to have guns get to defense positions. Once there, they would be used until ammo was depleted or the position overrun.
In theory, that would allow any gun to be put on any vehicle. I don't think you're advocating that, just musing "aloud" so to speak.
My suggestion on irregular items is RESEARCH FIRST: if there's a photo of a Blitz with a PAK 40 on it, fine, or an account of someone on the scene. But just putting one on a truck because it MIGHT have happened doesn't make sense. Besides, unstable gun platforms make for lousy aim. Even a small, underpowered Panzer chassis is more stable than a truck.
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:56 AM UTC
It might seem implausible, but for instance, the JagdTiger production was hampered by the lack of gunmounts, not the actual gun itself.
And we're not talking series production of such a combo. Take a battered but working Pak 40, dismount it, bolt to the chassis of any vehicle and it can be moved again. That's the reasoning in those days.
The same as the Calliope mounted in 251's done by the US engineers, as chronicled in PanzerWrecks. The 251 was completely gutted and a Pak 40 mount used to have the Calliopes fitted. Just to get the needed artillery power to a certain area. And that was the US army, not the desperate German army.
More ridiculous looking combo's were even put into production, the first Panzerjager, the Bison, those were overtaxing the chassis yet were put into production.
And we're not talking series production of such a combo. Take a battered but working Pak 40, dismount it, bolt to the chassis of any vehicle and it can be moved again. That's the reasoning in those days.
The same as the Calliope mounted in 251's done by the US engineers, as chronicled in PanzerWrecks. The 251 was completely gutted and a Pak 40 mount used to have the Calliopes fitted. Just to get the needed artillery power to a certain area. And that was the US army, not the desperate German army.
More ridiculous looking combo's were even put into production, the first Panzerjager, the Bison, those were overtaxing the chassis yet were put into production.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:58 AM UTC
Again, this line of reasoning allows for anything. Why not an 88 in a Kuebel?
goldnova72
Joined: February 21, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 03:11 PM UTC
Just noticed on Alan's picture of the RSO ,that one of the tracks is put on backwards. Post war display model ? Or factory issue ? lol Jim
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 05:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If that RSO was sent to the Eastern Front, the tracks are in the correct configuration. The Wehrmacht wasn't in the eastward offensive business at that time. Shifting into reverse, they'd work just dandy.
Kastanova
Joined: May 10, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:40 AM UTC
'If' the Germans put a pak 40 on the blitz they would need, strong stablisers and a large platform to operate from which the RSO didn't have, it would take along time to set up and would be riduclusly high for an unarmoured vehicle. not to mention how they managed to build it on their meager resources.
Now 'if' an armoured maultier was configured, yet again it would need stabalisers but is a more plausable soloution. the vehicles high centre of gravity is always the problem.
i have a video documentry which shows for a breif few seconds a Opel Blitz with its 20mm flak 38 driving along the road firing and it nearly tips from the guns recoil, imaging what a 75mm would do.
my 2 cents
Mat
Now 'if' an armoured maultier was configured, yet again it would need stabalisers but is a more plausable soloution. the vehicles high centre of gravity is always the problem.
i have a video documentry which shows for a breif few seconds a Opel Blitz with its 20mm flak 38 driving along the road firing and it nearly tips from the guns recoil, imaging what a 75mm would do.
my 2 cents
Mat
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
i have a video documentry which shows for a breif few seconds a Opel Blitz with its 20mm flak 38 driving along the road firing and it nearly tips from the guns recoil, imaging what a 75mm would do.
The 2cm was a popular gun for trucks and other purposes because it was less likely to have a recoil problem. I frankly don't see a PAK 40 on a Blitz.
Captin_Caveman_III
Joined: October 20, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 12:06 PM UTC
A Pak40 on an Opel Blitz would make for a realy wild build, as a German concept or what if. So I'd love to see it build. 
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 12:27 PM UTC
Conceptually it would work but with limitations.
To offset the recoil you'd need to have it reaward firing so that the energy is absorbed by all four wheels and is pushing through the centre of mass rather than away from it and you'd lose the ability to traverse more than a few degress either side because of the potential for the recoil to tip the vehicle though you could eliminate that with toss down legs mounted in the centre and folded behind the cab ( ie the cut down left over tril arms hinged to be folded up and down quickly to provide lateral stability which would depend how long you had to set up ).
For best stability it would need to be removed from the wheels and the axle affixed to the bed and to eliminate the high profile you'd most likely need to remove the truck's cab roof to keep everything as low as possible.
So if you had a gun with stuffed wheels and a truck that wasn't needed to move troops and supplies then in theory it could be done.
As for practicality it would only work as a shoot-n-scoot becasue otherwise you'd need to pull up, turn around, aim the truck backwards and then do it all again. So as an end of days scenario again it may work as the Germans by then were doing shoot-n-scoot type fighting.
To offset the recoil you'd need to have it reaward firing so that the energy is absorbed by all four wheels and is pushing through the centre of mass rather than away from it and you'd lose the ability to traverse more than a few degress either side because of the potential for the recoil to tip the vehicle though you could eliminate that with toss down legs mounted in the centre and folded behind the cab ( ie the cut down left over tril arms hinged to be folded up and down quickly to provide lateral stability which would depend how long you had to set up ).
For best stability it would need to be removed from the wheels and the axle affixed to the bed and to eliminate the high profile you'd most likely need to remove the truck's cab roof to keep everything as low as possible.
So if you had a gun with stuffed wheels and a truck that wasn't needed to move troops and supplies then in theory it could be done.
As for practicality it would only work as a shoot-n-scoot becasue otherwise you'd need to pull up, turn around, aim the truck backwards and then do it all again. So as an end of days scenario again it may work as the Germans by then were doing shoot-n-scoot type fighting.
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:20 PM UTC
Then again might actually work.
Add legs behind the cab to fold open sideways for lateral bracing and chocks behind the wheels. It's a little further back than ideal to get the best absorbtion of recoil by the rear wheels and you loose the ability to use the truck's centre of mass to help absorb it but eliminates the problem of dealing with the ejected brass.
You don't have the same stability problems as you do with a FlaK gun, the FlaK fires pretty much constantly so needs to be braced against steady, repetitive recoil with no recovery time between shots, an AT gun has recovery time and less need to remain as still as possible as you're tracking slow moving armour not fast moving aircraft.
You'd need to add some sort of protection to the nose from the muzzle blast ( you'd probably want to armour the engine area from small arms fire anyway, would suck to go to all that trouble to be taken out by a stray .303 through the radiator ) but the ergonomics at least work.
Add legs behind the cab to fold open sideways for lateral bracing and chocks behind the wheels. It's a little further back than ideal to get the best absorbtion of recoil by the rear wheels and you loose the ability to use the truck's centre of mass to help absorb it but eliminates the problem of dealing with the ejected brass.
You don't have the same stability problems as you do with a FlaK gun, the FlaK fires pretty much constantly so needs to be braced against steady, repetitive recoil with no recovery time between shots, an AT gun has recovery time and less need to remain as still as possible as you're tracking slow moving armour not fast moving aircraft.
You'd need to add some sort of protection to the nose from the muzzle blast ( you'd probably want to armour the engine area from small arms fire anyway, would suck to go to all that trouble to be taken out by a stray .303 through the radiator ) but the ergonomics at least work.
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 03:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Again, this line of reasoning allows for anything. Why not an 88 in a Kuebel?
Well that would just be silly, what with the Schwimmwagen being four wheel drive it's obviously a much better choice.
Might need a bracing arm hinged off the back though.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 10:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi
It might well be capable of towing the gun but it wouldn't hold up as a platform for mounting the gun in the same way as a Flak gun such as the 20mm. The smallest vehicle I've seen a Pak mounted to is the little RSO, but note its a tracked vehicle and I do wonder how successful it actually turned out as a gun platform.
Alan
According to Thomas Jentz, users reported that the gun's weight and recoil forces combined to bend and crack the chassis frame in a short time (unlike a tank, the RSO had a simple ladder frame, like a truck). That's why it was not built in a larger series.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Then again might actually work.
Add legs behind the cab to fold open sideways for lateral bracing and chocks behind the wheels. It's a little further back than ideal to get the best absorbtion of recoil by the rear wheels and you loose the ability to use the truck's centre of mass to help absorb it but eliminates the problem of dealing with the ejected brass.
You don't have the same stability problems as you do with a FlaK gun, the FlaK fires pretty much constantly so needs to be braced against steady, repetitive recoil with no recovery time between shots, an AT gun has recovery time and less need to remain as still as possible as you're tracking slow moving armour not fast moving aircraft.
You'd need to add some sort of protection to the nose from the muzzle blast ( you'd probably want to armour the engine area from small arms fire anyway, would suck to go to all that trouble to be taken out by a stray .303 through the radiator ) but the ergonomics at least work.
Dean
Whilst we are talking theory and possibilities, and taking hopefully this all in the light hearted vein it should be, could I just point out a few things which I disagree with in your ideas and comments.
Keeping that platform stable is of course essential, but the minute you "mount" the gun of this size and power to the chassis you are exerting all the forces through that chassis, and the Opel 's would simply not be up to it, for all the reasons outlined by Gerald in his post on the RSO. It's worth noting that all the pictures I've seen of the Flak 20mm on the Opel don't really "mount" the gun to the truck. It's kept in its original mount which is then held in place by a fixing around the foot.
or the same but mounted on a skid.
so the energy is held within the guns original mounting as it would be on the ground.
I've yet to see a photograph of the 20mm directly fixed into the cargo bed of the Blitz, but I'm happy to be shown one and corrected, no problem.
Your point about comparison of the Flak 88 is correct in that the 88 was used against aircraft moving across the sky and required rapid fire, but tanks are not exactly slow moving across ground, can be difficult to hit due to their movement over terrain and the big difference is usually the planes don't fire back at the 88 but the tanks certainly do against antitank guns
Which brings me to my next point, the increased height the gun is at now at makes it a much easier and bigger target than the purposely made low silhouette of the original gun carriage. Far to visible or difficult to hide than the standard configuration. Even discounting all that it's still got to be easier to drag a gun with dodgy wheels, even repair or replace the gun carriage, than try to fix the thing to a flimsy Opel Blitz.. Also then work out where to store the ammo, which would normally be carried by the towing vehicle.
The only thing I've seen which has some comparison to this is the Portee arrangement, but note again the gun remains on its wheeled mounting.
All good fun.
Alan
scgatgbi
Joined: May 28, 2009
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Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 02:56 AM UTC
[quote]
Well that would just be silly, what with the Schwimmwagen being four wheel drive it's obviously a much better choice.
Absolutely brilliant!!!!!! Does this mean a Zunndap with a Nebelwerfer or drilling mount mounted on the sidecar is out of the question? 
Quoted Text
Again, this line of reasoning allows for anything. Why not an 88 in a Kuebel?
Well that would just be silly, what with the Schwimmwagen being four wheel drive it's obviously a much better choice.
Absolutely brilliant!!!!!! Does this mean a Zunndap with a Nebelwerfer or drilling mount mounted on the sidecar is out of the question?
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 04:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Absolutely brilliant!!!!!! Does this mean a Zunndap with a Nebelwerfer or drilling mount mounted on the sidecar is out of the question?
Personally, I'd like to see a Dora on a Panther!
scgatgbi
Joined: May 28, 2009
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Posted: Thursday, November 05, 2009 - 07:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAbsolutely brilliant!!!!!! Does this mean a Zunndap with a Nebelwerfer or drilling mount mounted on the sidecar is out of the question?
Personally, I'd like to see a Dora on a Panther!
Well there was that alleged sighting of a Bismarck turret mounted on a Puma Chassis with a full IR night fighting system. No pics of it, but that just means it can't be disproved
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