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Dioramas: Large Scale
Dioramas with large scale (1/16 plus) subjects.
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Large diorama
retiredyank
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 04:43 AM UTC
OK Guys,
I have started work on my 1/35 Tamiya Tiger I Early kit. There is excellent interior and exterior detail. I have begun laying down the base coats(oxide red and primer gray) and weathering as I go. This means, I am applying the first coat of paint that will show(ultraflat tan) and using white glue to simulate paint chips and rust. I have on order a template for the correct markings of Romel's Afrikakorps. Also, I have on order Verlinden Panzer mechanics and two figures painting. I am thinking that I want the mechanics to be working on the engine. With such a large piece (the Tiger) being the focal point, I believe I can get away with increasing the base size. I am think 3x4 feet and drawing some more figures and part of the camp into it. However, I would have nowhere that could hold this dio, short of my coffee table(the expensive part). Now, I am looking through blueprints for a glass top coffee table deep enough to set the dio in. I am looking for a 1/35 Romel figure. I have seen one before, but can't remember where. I have decided to scratch build the mechanic's shack. I also am looking for a cheap way to display the engine being removed. I have seen some pictures of the tank being assembled at a factory(impossible if it is staged in Africa) and one or two of the engine being lifted out by a recovery vehicle($50 I don't want to spend on something already expensive). Looking for some solutions?
TIA
Matt N.
Finch
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 05:19 AM UTC
If you want some feedback....here goes:
1. A base of 3 X 4 is way too big for what you're doing. The base size needs to be determined by the story, and then by the size of the elements you're using. If you stick to a single vehicle (the tiger itself) it will be lost on a base of that size. No one can tell you the exact size and there is no "right" answer here, but there are some wrong ones.

2. Military units are always on the move, so I am not sure there would be such a thing as a maintenance shack. Any tank battalion will have a number of maintenance trucks, and everything needed to maintain the vehicles has to go on those trucks.

3. If the story is the crew doing maintenance, make the base just big enough to hold that. Everything else you add is a potential distraction that weakens the main point. If the story is the engine being pulled, you are correct that you'll need another vehicle with a crane or jib of some type to hoist it out. But try to resist adding element after element unless they directly support the main story. Generals don't supervise tank maintenance so why would one be there?

Just my thoughts, feel free to ignore them


retiredyank
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 11:35 PM UTC
I have no problem cutting down the size of the base. I have decided to add Romel and his kublewagen. In North Afrika, the maintenace was set up in suck a manner that vehicles could be sent to three stages of repair or be abandoned. There were the maintenance trucks. Then, 20 miles back, there was a small emplacement of field personel and mechanics to perform more problamatic repairs. Beyond that was the base camp with the equipment and mechanics to perform heavy repairs.
bizzychicken
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Posted: Sunday, November 08, 2009 - 09:38 AM UTC
Dont take this as gospel, but I think Rommel was back on sick leave in Germany when the Tigers arrived in Tunisia, check 1st but i'm sure he was home and Gen-Ob Hans-Jurgen von Arnim was CO of Armeegruppe Afrika.
3442
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Posted: Monday, November 09, 2009 - 03:03 PM UTC
according to tigers in combat, the first 3 tigers arrived in tunisia Nov. 23 1942

Rommel returned from sick leave on october 25 1942 after the brits had launched their counter attack on el Alamein. He then left on november 28th to see hitler at his headquarters in east prussia to discuss some issues about the north african campaign. Rommel then flew back on december 2nd

He then only officialy left the theatre on march 9 1943.

So from that it would be safe Rommel saw the tigers in north africa. However, during that period Rommel had plenty to keep himself busy, so i doubt he would have had a lot of time to visit maintenance, but it was in his character to care for his troops.

This might intrest you.
http://www.afrikakorps.org/_photos/Rommel/RommelRidePIII221.jpg
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:00 AM UTC
I do not plan to have Rommel overseeing maintenance on the Tiger. Actually, I have found a kit that included a kubelwagen, driver and Rommel as a passenger. More of a passing through than inspecting.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I do not plan to have Rommel overseeing maintenance on the Tiger. Actually, I have found a kit that included a kubelwagen, driver and Rommel as a passenger. More of a passing through than inspecting.



Why, what's the point? Is Romel the focal point or the Tiger? In the scene you are describing, there is no focal point. You have a collection of unrelated scenes on a large base with lots of empty space around them. Sounds like a pretty uninterresting scene to me. You would be much better off with a few small dios focusing on the individual scenes. Large dios very rarely are effective. They usually end up being a bunch of unrelated scenes and scattered vehicles and figures.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 01:14 AM UTC
That's an easy question to answer. Because 'I want to'.
edoardo
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 01:28 AM UTC
Hey Matt,
why don't you post some pics?


Quoted Text

This means, I am applying the first coat of paint that will show(ultraflat tan) and using white glue to simulate paint chips and rust.


What is it this "white glue" thing? Can you describe better this technique, which I don't know of?
Thanks
Edo
alanmac
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 01:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Matt,
why don't you post some pics?


Quoted Text

This means, I am applying the first coat of paint that will show(ultraflat tan) and using white glue to simulate paint chips and rust.


What is it this "white glue" thing? Can you describe better this technique, which I don't know of?
Thanks
Edo


https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/148201#1238976

I think the hairspray method would be better and not require as much aggressive scrubbing.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 02:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That's an easy question to answer. Because 'I want to'.


Don't come on asking for advice when you don't like the advice you get and get pissy. I could care less what you do, paint it all pink as far as I'm concerned. I am just offering the advice you solicited.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That's an easy question to answer. Because 'I want to'.


Don't come on asking for advice when you don't like the advice you get and get pissy. I could care less what you do, paint it all pink as far as I'm concerned. I am just offering the advice you solicited.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound "pissy". Just following artist's porogative. Had some people trying to convince me that about how wrong I was cause I open some doors on a model. Kinda put me in the defensive mode.
dsaulino
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:55 AM UTC
Hi Matt,

I am putting the finishing touches on a diorama that includes Rommel. I used the Verlinden set called Afrika Korps Reporting. The set depicts Rommel standing with arms at side receiving a soldier in a motorcycle coat at attention and saluting. Rommel is dressed in jack boots, riding pants and tunic with the officers cap on and captured British goggles. It is very detailed and the fit was good. the one thing is that the hands looked a little long and goofy. I also have a figure of Rommel by Warriors depicted standing with his hands behind his back. The detail on the Warriors figure is a little soft but passable.
bizzychicken
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:05 AM UTC
Rommel riding around in a car sounds great, he was one General that did do alot of travelling around from one group of troops to another. He was a soldiers General for sure. Maybe have one of the maintance troops turning to salute him, maybe this will tie the Dio together Cheers Geraint
alanmac
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry, didn't mean to sound "pissy". Just following artist's porogative. Had some people trying to convince me that about how wrong I was cause I open some doors on a model. Kinda put me in the defensive mode.


Well, I think we can see "pissy" is your attitude in most threads when you don't like what's written, although the posts are not rude or offensive, just disagreeing or making a point that differs to yours.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/145813#1218609
but I see the model in question you've removed from the gallery, and you were wrong not only in the model but in your attitude and "stories". I see you even tried to sell it describing it as "I have a White M3A1 Scout Car (slightly retrofitted) in 1/35 by Revell $75"

$75 !!!!

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/147152#1229780


Then in your last constructive comments forum post you get "pissy" there with somebody but don't have the decency to apologise in that thread.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/147540#1239195

We have the old "artist prerogative" nonsense coming out again . You like the rest of us are not an artist, just a modeller making little plastic kits.
I've worked for over 25 years as a Designer but I wouldn't try to pull that I'm an artist bull.

As I said before these forums are full of people with a huge amount of knowledge and experience, willing to give it freely to there fellow modellers. If you wish to avail yourself of this wonderful "database" you can easily do so. Alternatively, if you wish to take a different attitude you'll quickly find yourself sidelined and ignored.

Personally I've always found members overflowing with generosity in imparting knowledge, advice and experience. All for the price of a little bit of honesty, civility and a simple thank you.



Alan

Removed by original poster on 11/10/09 - 21:44:32 (GMT).
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:02 AM UTC
Umm...ok...I'm sorry. Actually, the posts in this thread have helped me decide a better way to present the Tiger model. I will keep it in the field and out of harm's way. I know of some figures around of German troops painting. I am doing the weathering and paint chips before assembly. I will have the paintings recovering the paint job. Should be simple and straight-foward enough. Oh, I'm glad that you don't call yourself an artist. I, on the other hand, do everything from pencils to pastels to oils. And, I am sorry that my replies have been misinterpreted. I didn't mean to sound 'pissy'. Rather I meant that I appreciated the advice, but intended to continue in a different direction. By the way "Al", quit being a dousche and stick to your own posts.
calvin_ng
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:08 AM UTC
And yet again with the personal attacks Jim where are ya? Matt has said on FSM that he was chosen by a publisher of Modelling books and a commisioner for builds and he got really pissy when a couple of guys told him there were no m3a1 stuarts at normandy, he tried to prove his "fact" by showing us m5a1s and m3a3s in re enactments!
alanmac
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

By the way "Al", quit being a dousche and stick to your own posts.


I can see you are going to be a worthwhile member of the armorama community. Keep it up and you are going to find it a lonely place to ask help and advice from....
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And yet again with the personal attacks Jim where are ya? Matt has said on FSM that he was chosen by a publisher of Modelling books and a commisioner for builds and he got really pissy when a couple of guys told him there were no m3a1 stuarts at normandy, he tried to prove his "fact" by showing us m5a1s and m3a3s in re enactments!

Have you ever seen $1000000??? Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As far as being commissioned, my contact wants to send me kits in bulk. I am assured these will be shipped by next week.
Tarok
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 01:01 PM UTC
Let's just all calm down for a second or 2 - I have great "happy pills" which I'm prepared to share

Matt,

There are some great suggestions here. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend Shepard Paine's "Building Dioramas" book. I think you should find it on Amazon. He covers of many of the aspects of succesful diorama building.

I particularly like your idea of the Tigers being painted - or perhaps mud is being applied? I'm guessing the painters are DAK and not European campaigners? I'd lose the General and keep the focus on the Panzer being painted - you've got enough of a "story" right there.

An alternate idea, and I wouldn't know if Rommel ever did this, but how about the maintenance crew showing the General what they're working on? The 2 (?) crewmembers haunched over the open engine deck with the General looking over their shoulders. The General, be the soldiers' General, may have been curious about the new equipment that had arrived while he was in Europe. As I said, I don't know how plausible the idea is though.

Regarding the Stuarts in Normandy (presumably we're all refering to D-Day and beyond), I wouldn't have a clue if they were or were not deployed. I was under the impression that the light tanks in Europe had been replaced by Medium tanks due to the higher calibre weapons used by the Germans. Be that as it may, I would love to know if they were deployed as I think it could make for a great modeling subject. I'm open to the idea, but I'd like to see period photos or documented evidence of this. That said, this is a topic for another thread, as this post is going way off-topic.

Finally, let's keep this civil: leave the name calling at the door, we're not in kindegarten.

Rudi
3442
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 01:16 PM UTC
Raudi made a great suggestion about the dio.

1)Keep the focus on the tiger
or
2) Tie Rommel to the story, otherwise he will simply pass unknown in the dio.

You can obviously use "artistic license" and do whatever you wish to do, but these tips will make the difference between a good and a great dio.

As far as the "pissyness" goes, Gino tends to be very direct, and I understand that he can be very frustrating. He's also very critical at times which makes the feedback process difficult. However, after 5 years around town he has yet to decieve me on the quality of his feedback.

docdios
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Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:38 PM UTC
Hi guys

this thread has bee brought to my attention so i am now keeping an eye on it, should it drift off course or get personal it will be blocked.

Matt
as others have pointed out on this thread and others there is a lot of knowledge to be found on these forums you just need to ask for it as most of is given free. It may help your cause in future if you ask the questions regarding your ideas before hand and you are likley to find all the answers you need to create your dioramas with out all the drama that currently seem to follow. just a thought

regards

Keith
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 12:55 AM UTC
Thank you for all of the suggestions. Do you think I could tie both the mechanics and general together with the repainting of the Tiger, or would that be too diminishing from the Tiger being the focus. Or, could I make the figures the focus and the Tiger a prop? Now, I will explain my actions to everyone. I am currently seeing two therapists and three doctors due to severe head trauma with an underlying psychosis. I am taking 5 prescriptions a day. I am also losing most of my teeth, of which most have sucumb to infection. So, schizo-bipolar affective disorder wins again.
Tarok
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Posted: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 08:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

1Do you think I could tie both the mechanics and general together with the repainting of the Tiger, 2or would that be too diminishing from the Tiger being the focus. 3 Or, could I make the figures the focus and the Tiger a prop?


1 That would be really difficult to pull off. Without any interaction between the senior officer and mechanics the focus could be lost on the viewer, to the point of (honestly no offense meant) his presence being perceived as pointless. As much as Rommel was a soldiers' general, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't hang around with guys painting a vehicle.

2 As I mentioned in 1 above, it's more a case of no iteraction between the actors, no connection to viewer. You've got 4 'actors' in your scene: 2 mechanics, 1 officer, 1 vehicle (actually 5 if you include the setting). Each actor needs to somehow connect to another - sorry, I'm finding this a little bit difficult to articulate, but I'm thinking sort of like a chain, but 1 link may also connect to 2 or more other links. Not sure if this makes sense... This is just my interpretation of diorama best practices.

3 It can be really difficult to make something as large as a Tiger a prop given the number of figures you're using. In the sort of scene you're proposing, I don't think so. Were you to portray the camp being overrun by Allied forces, or the team succumbing to the heat or desert, then possibly yes.

Could you please post a picture or link of the mechanic team you're wanting to use? It'll really help us brainstorm a few ideas with you. Also, how dead set are you on a desert setting?

Rudi
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