Can someone highlight for me the major differences between the Dragon / Cyberhobby Tiger II (Henschel) kits and recommend a specific kit? I'm a novice modeler, so absolute historical accuracy is less important than OOTB potential. The Cyberhobby kit #6400 jumped off the shelf at me, but I was hesitant to buy it before making a comparison.

Bill,

If you're set on a Dragon kit, my recommendation would be either 6303 "King Tiger Henschel Turret w/ Zimmerit" or 6232 "King Tiger Late Production w/ new pattern track, Ardennes 1944"

The former has the Zimmerit already in place, and the latter doesn't need it, so both save you the extra money and hassle of adding it (which as a novice you may find a drag).

Both are lovely kits with plenty of detail, but bear in mind that Dragon / Cyberhobby aren't really "novice" kits - unless of course you enjoy a challenge! If you're just looking for a relatively easy build to hone your skills, your best bet might be to go the Tamiya route, though never having built a Tamiya KT, I can't really recommend a specific Tamiya kit.

- Steve

Thanks for the input, Steve. Interesting point about the Dragon / Cyberhobby kits being less well suited to novices like myself. I don't mind the challenge, although I have to confess to being blown away by the number of parts in the Cyberhobby 2-in-1 T34/76 kit I bought a while back. It was my second kit since returning to modeling and there had to be four or five times as many parts as my first kit, a Tamiya Panther.

I've been there too. My first kit was also a Tamiya Panther and I was able to put it together in about two or three days. My next kit was a Dragon Stug III and it must have taken me about a month to get that built, not including painting or weathering. It definitely honed my skills though.

As for the King Tigers, I've only built the Tamiya 35252 King Tiger Ardennes Front , It wasn't really a bad kit (Not sure about historically accurate) but since it's the only one I built I can't really recommend one, but here are some more reviews:

6400 Cyber Hobby Kingtiger Henschel turret w/Zimmerit s.Pz.Abt. 505 Russia 1944
6303 Dragon King Tiger Henschel Turret with Zimmerit
6232 Dragon King Tiger Late Production w/New Pattern Track Ardennes 1944

Bill,

This Tamiya KT may be worth considering:

http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/tam35252.htm

As I said, I have no first-hand experience of this particular model, but most Tamiya kits go together very well and are ideal for novice modellers. So it could be an option for you.

- Steve

Edit: Eric - you just beat me to the punch with that Tamiya kit link!!

Both Tamiya Tiger-B kits have symetrical turrets, where the DML kits have the correct asymetrical turrets.

I would advise ANY DML Tiger-B kit over the Tamiya ones. The DML kits are far better detailed, offer much more extra's like PE and aluminum barrel and seperate links, plus they are just as easy to build as the Tamiya ones.

Also, DML offers variations where Tamiya only gives a single version of an initial and simplified turret Tiger-B.

I would disagree with that. The Tamiya ones are simplified and basic, but they are extremely easy to build. If you want detail & accuracy go with DML. If you want simplicity go with Tamiya.

The Dragon kits also allow the novice some options, such as avoiding using the Photo Etch parts. Some of them are extremely easy to use (grill covers), while most, if not all of the tools and their racks can be built from styrene. thus saving time and trouble.

Probably the most-demanding part would be building the Magic Tracks, though the Tiger II's tracks are very large and easy to work with. I believe there are styrene band tracks available for some Dragon kits. If you sell the Magic Tracks, they will more than pay for the Dragon Styrene ones (if they exist).

Thanks to all for the links to the kit reviews. It sounds like the Cyberhobby kit (#6400) is essentially the same as #6303 with the turret modified to carry the "charging knight" insignia. Since #6303 seems to be a good choice, I'll assume #6400 is as well. How's that for rationalizing a purchase?

A dragon kit as easy as a Tamiya one to build, I dont think so just those crappy instructions in dragon kit would be enough to put a novice off, and I do own both types, I would go with Tamiya with a set of engine screens a much nicer less confusing build, cheers Bob.

If you want a quick build to gain more experience, go with the Tamiya kits with the engine grill fret. Perfect fit and no fusss, simple OOTB choice.

If you are prepared to put in more patience in your build, the DML/Cyber Hobby would suit you. You also have the choice to go into newer skills in handling the more complicated PE frets.

The Tamiya kit should be cheaper then DML ones.

Many suggestions already and it is still your decision to make.

Regards
Paul

As others have pointed out the Tamiya kits win hands down on ease of build and the instructions are always easy to follow, very much unlike Dragon. The Tamiya kits are older (1994 I think) than the Dragon kits (2004) and lack some of the accuracy and detail of the more recent Dragon/Cyberhobby stuff but the still look great when built and don't require anything like the time, skill and frustration. For a novice builder who isn't out to win awards I would certainly recommend the Tamiya kits first.

Here is a rundown of the different kits.

Tamiya 35057 - this is the old 1970's motorized kit, long since out of production but possibly still collecting dust on a hobby shop shelf somewhere. Best avoided or if cheap enough used as a practice kit.

Tamiya 35164 - This is the all-new 1990's updated kit which is far more detailed and accurate. It also includes a commander figure. MSRP is $47 but they can be found on line for around $36.

Tamiya 35252 - The "Ardennes" version - basically an update of 35164 suitable for making a diorama right out of the box with 2 added crew figures talking to a motorcycle messenger. Both of the Tamiya kits have 1-piece vinyl tracks which are much simpler and less time consuming than the Dragon independent link styrene tracks but less detailed. Since much of the track is hidden by the side skirts it may not matter to you. Dragon Magic Track links are also sold seperately by Cyberhobby so you could always get a set and put them on a Tamiya kit if you were so inclined. This kit is more expensive with a retail of $59 but usually sells on-line for $10-12 less. Tamiya and Eduard both market photo etch engine grills as a seperate item.

Dragon 6208 - Markings included for the Eastern Front and Ardennes. The "experten" pointed out "major flaws" in this kit when it was released (2004?) but in reality it is all minor piddly crap nobody would really care about. $51 MSRP or usually about $10 less if you shop around. Photo etch grills are included.

Dragon 6232 - "Ardennes" version with late pattern tracks. This one has a metal gun barrel instead of the plastic one in 6208 and more photo etch. It also includes 4 Volksgrenadier figures in winter gear from kit 6115. Zimmerit was not used on this version and the kit doesn't come with it so no worries.

Dragon 6254 - "Battle of the Bulge" version. This kit has Magic Track which is easier to assemble than Dragon's older design of indy link tracks. The previous 2 kits I think have the older style tracks but again Cyberhobby also sell Magic Track seperately. This kit also has a metal gun barrel, 3 spare turned brass 8.8cm rounds and 8 Fallschirmjager figures for the Ardennes (kits 6113 and 6143) for making a diorama. $51 list, $41 retail.

Dragon 6303 - This is a limited run kit that comes and goes from the shelves. Currently I think it is on pre-order. Essentially an updated 6232 with new hull and turret parts incorporating the zimmerit anti-magnetic paste right into the part. This one also has Magic Track and the metal gun. $54 list or around $44 retail.

Cyberhobby 6400 - This kit is essentially the same as 6303 but has markings for a specific unit on the Eastern Front where 6303 has markings for 8 vehicles on both fronts. It actually deletes some of the good parts from 6303 such as the metal gun barrel option and spare brass rounds. This is a limited edition single production run kit so once they are gone they are gone. It is aimed at the modeller that just has to have this specific vehicle from this specific unit. 6303 would be a better value if you are not that person. $66 list $60 retail.

Thanks to all for the input. I literally cut and pasted the comments into a separate notes file for when I make the purchase. I love the effort the manufacturers make to put out variants of each vehicle, but it gets confusing to those of us who are knowledgeable overall, but not down to the micro-level. One last question - about Cyberhobby: It's the same company as DML, right? I've read a few kit reviews that have referred to it as a "boutique" kit maker, so just curious how it's different from DML-labeled kits.

Cyberhobby splits up into 3 different types of boxes:
White: single production run kits
Green: regular production run kits
Orange: premium kits, older kits upgraded with figures or magic/DS tracks

CyberHobby is indeed a boutique line of DML concerning the white boxes. These are usually very unique subjects and after the single run, will not return back into production.

Quality is the same as regular DML kits.

yeah, just like the Panther F kit Never say never

Yeah, well, one single exception on the rule does not completely invalidate it

Besides, that one is a green Cyber Hobby as well as a regular DML re-release.

Not strictly correct. The single link tracks and 18 tooth drive sprocket were installed on a small test batch of tanks in August, 1944, when Zimmerit was still in use, and these tanks were assigned to the 506th Battalion, who used them in the fighting around Aachen, and later in the Ardennes. If you want to use the kit decals, you must add Zimmerit. You should also backdate a few features, like removing the rain gutter over the gunsight opening on the turret front, as this didn't appear until December.
The new tracks were deemed a success, but stocks of the old double link tracks had to be used up, so the new track and drive sprocket don't reappear on Henschel's production lines until March, 1945. These did not have Zimmerit. You can use the Dragon Ardennes kit to depict one of these if you can scrounge your own markings. These may have very late features, like a reinforcing rib on the front mudguards (easy to make from sheet styrene).

We know the picture of 1*09 with the single track links and maybe zimmerit (difficult to say if it's really there or not). On the other hand there's a photo of 1*03 which doesn't have zimmerit but has the standard double link track. It's not impossible that a non zimmerited vehicle of the 506th received those single link tracks to test. We'll never know I guess.

spit

About the single link tracks, these were available in large stock, as evidenced by photographs. However, it's not clear where these shots were taken.

Since we see very very late Tiger-B's fitted with the early double link tracks as used on the initials, it's fair to assume these stocks were not at Henschel's plant.

I think what this shows is that in the field, you use what's available. Tanks sent back to depot for repair or rebuild could end up with anything. Can we let the guy have some fun and just build the thing?

Here Here!

Well said.

- Steve

Yeah, just forget everything about what is FACT and do whatever you want.

Don't appreciate historical info given, just paint the kit pink with gold spots!

Thing is Herbert, Bill didn't ask for a history lesson. His request was clear enough, he said:




And in any case, as Mark quite sagely points out, there's no way that we'll ever know "everything about what is FACT". Because of all the tens of thousands of AFVs that saw service in WWII, there are photographic records of just a tiny fraction - and many of those are open to interpretation, given that they're in black and white and / or the detail isn't clear.

So striving for 100% accuracy is often an exercise in sheer futility anyway.

You know, I'd love to see some of your builds, Herbert. I really would. Because with all that "experten" knowledge that you're constantly spouting (even when it's not being solicited), I'm sure you'll blow us all away with the quality of your work.

So come on, why don't you show us how it's done? Or are you in fact just mired in A.M.S.?

- Steve

Well, actually, we know a little bit more than that. The 506th Battalion switched to King Tigers in August, and was issued with 45 tanks when Zimmerit was still mandatory (the switchover to non-Zimmerit tanks occurred a few weeks later while the 503rd was being re-equipped, so it got a mixed batch of tanks with and without the coating). The 506th lost one third of its strength during the autumn fighting around Aachen, and was brought up to strength again in December, 1944, with 14 new tanks without Zimmerit, so it could participate in the Ardennes Offensive. So, during that battle, you could see a mixed bag of tanks with Zimmerit and with the double link track, tanks with Zimmerit and the new single link track and revised sprockets, and new tanks without Zimmerit but still with the old double link tracks. The battalion had even received a pair of early turret tanks with snorkels back in August (photographed before they received their turret numbers, unfortunately), so it's conceivable that one or both remained in service in December.
As for people complaining about "too much" historical accuracy, all I can say is, the information is there if you want to use it. If you prefer to do a "what if" vehicle, or a representative vehicle, rather than a particular tank on a particular date, go right ahead. There are no "model police" out there enforcing some arbitrary standard of accuracy. Some facts are not and probably never can be known, and here, the builder will just have to take his best guess. But, since these postings will be read by more people than the original questioner, and will be archived for others doing research in the future, there's no reason not to publish what is known, in case someone wants a more complete answer.

How difficult are the special production Cyber-hobby kits to find? I've looked for kit #6400 on a number of sites (e.g. Mission Models, Sprue Brothers, etc.) with no luck. The only place I've seen it is on the shelf of the hobby store I visited recently (where I passed on it) and the review on Missing Lynx. I'm wondering whether I should have pounced on it ...