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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Need a Tiger II Kit Recommendation
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Friday, November 27, 2009 - 08:59 PM UTC

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How difficult are the special production Cyber-hobby kits to find? I've looked for kit #6400 on a number of sites (e.g. Mission Models, Sprue Brothers, etc.) with no luck. The only place I've seen it is on the shelf of the hobby store I visited recently (where I passed on it) and the review on Missing Lynx. I'm wondering whether I should have pounced on it ...



Bill, unless you specifically want the Cyberhobby 6400 just for the "rarity value" or to build that specific tank with the "charging knight" decals, you're probably better off with 6303 (which itself, as Mark says, is sometimes hard to find).

The "white box" Cyberhobby kits tend to be rarer because they're only produced as a limited run. Some of them fetch silly money on eBay for example once they're OOP, because collectors just "have to" have them. So if you see one available in your LHS or online for a reasonable price and it's a kit you really are interested in, then it may be as well to snap it up - or else have a "should'a, would'a, could'a" moment later on.

- Steve
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:09 PM UTC

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As for people complaining about "too much" historical accuracy, all I can say is, the information is there if you want to use it …. There are no "model police" out there enforcing some arbitrary standard of accuracy.



That's true Gerald, there isn't a "model police".

But there are the "experten" - a group with a presence on pretty much every modelling forum that I've ever joined or lurked at.

Sure, historical research is part of the hobby, and it can be an interesting and fulfilling one. And if immersing yourself in Waffenamt directives and such like in your spare time is what floats your boat, then who am I to argue?

Similarly, if someone enquires about a specific detail on a tank, the accuracy & merits of such and such a kit, or what can be done to either improve a particular kit or convert it to an earlier / later / export / import / shampooed / blow-dried / shaken & stirred version, then by all means let's discuss it.

But when all's said and done, this is first and foremost a modelling forum. You know - a corner of the Web where folks drop by to share with kindred spirits their built (or in-progress) models and to exchange tips and experiences relating to models.

Some guys here do have the "expert knowledge", but at the same time they back it up with some really fine builds and "how to" explanations. I have a tremendous amount of respect for these guys, and have learned a lot from them.

Other guys have neither the expert knowledge nor the modelling skills - but they step up to the plate and share their work anyway, in the hope of getting some useful tips to improve. I have even more respect for them.

What I don't have any respect for however are the resident "experten".

These are the guys who constantly pick holes in kits and waffle on at every opportunity about minutiae, just to show how "knowledgeable" they are - but who never post up any of their own work.

The guys who - when someone shows off one of their finished models - make comments like "Nice build, but Dragon (or whoever) screwed up and the antenna mount on the engine deck should be 6 scale inches further forward" - but who never post up any of their own work.

The guys who pass snide remarks like "well why not just paint it pink then" in response to others saying that "historical accuracy" isn't their top priority - but who never post up any of their own work.

The guys who make a song and dance about tiny, obscure details, or "errors" that are virtually impossible to notice unless you crawl all over the thing with blueprints, callipers and micrometers (in which case they're not really errors as far as I'm concerned) - but who never post up any of their own work.

The guys who take it upon themselves to give the rest of us unsolicited "history lessons" (not infrequently delivered in a patronising, condescending tone) - but who never post up any of their own work.

The guys who simply learn and recite Zaloga and other references parrot-fashion (thus proving that any fool can read a book) - but who never post up any of their own work.

In short, the guys who just generally try to impress (maybe in some cases even intimidate) others with their "wealth of knowledge" - but who never post up any of their own work.

I have no problem with the pursuit of historical accuracy, Gerald. None at all. But I for one think that the constant ramblings of these resident "experten" about "historical accuracy" would have much more credibility if they were to show us some of the fruits of all that encyclopaedic knowledge in the form a selection of their builds. Don't you?

Because otherwise - let's face it - it's all just hot air isn't it? All red hat and no trousers.

- Steve
HK_AFV
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Posted: Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:51 PM UTC
Hi Steve,

Well said, right to the point, bravo!

Regards,
Paul
spetsnazgru
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Lebanon
Joined: March 05, 2009
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Posted: Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:59 PM UTC
About the 6400 I got mine from internethobbies.com, try to search there.
redcap
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 04:21 AM UTC
Steve - "WELL SAID SIR!"

A comprehensive and eloquent summary shared by many on this site I'm sure.

Some of us help others and submit our work on this site for open scrutiny and critique whilst others seem to mire everything in a holy grail type quest for the 'perfect model'.

The perfect model exists - but it's called 'The Real Thing'.

The bloke posting this thread merely asked a simple question as to which model to buy (Tamiya or DML) whilst stating quite clearly that absolute accuracy was NOT a prime consideration. Rather, he just wanted an 'ease of build' selection. Yet, it descended into a homily about the King Tiger's history when it was never sought.

If I can improve my models and rectify GLARING errors, improve upon some overscale aspects etc - great! - but I don't let myself get wrapped up in angst about whether I missed a couple of 1/35 discarded cigarettes ends on the rear engine deck that Tiger '301' or whatever must have had as a couple of Germans can clearly be seen smoking on it in WW2 B&W photos etc! Whilst the contributions are probably well intentioned, for those who are casual or new modellers, it can seem very daunting when they are overwhelmed with facts/figures that have no real meaning - other than to those who are interested - almost to the point of obsession on any given subject(s).

Lets just BUILD AND ENJOY our models and have less of the 'Paralysis by Analysis' everytime someone asks a simple question.
Fitz
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 01:58 PM UTC

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I think what this shows is that in the field, you use what's available. Tanks sent back to depot for repair or rebuild could end up with anything. Can we let the guy have some fun and just build the thing?



Here Here!

Well said.

- Steve



Yeah, just forget everything about what is FACT and do whatever you want.

Don't appreciate historical info given, just paint the kit pink with gold spots!



And why not? Anyone should be able to build any kit any way that pleases them. All too often the accuracy Nazi's try to take all the fun out of just building a kit for the joy of building a kit.

THESE ARE LITTLE PIECES OF PLASTIC! Let's not take ourselves too seriously now.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 07:55 PM UTC

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I have no problem with the pursuit of historical accuracy, Gerald. None at all. But I for one think that the constant ramblings of these resident "experten" about "historical accuracy" would have much more credibility if they were to show us some of the fruits of all that encyclopaedic knowledge in the form a selection of their builds. Don't you?



Actually, no. Research and construction are two separate skills. Some people have one. Some people have both. And I suppose some have neither. I am not a contest winning builder, I believe I am fairly average. I have no idea if Herbert Ackermans' models are any good, nor do I lose any sleep over it. I try to get a few things right though, and I am a devoted researcher. I've spent a ridiculous amount of money over the last 35 years on my military library, and if I do have the answer to a question, I may save someone a few weeks (or a few hundred dollars) by answering it. However, it is discouraging when I get the back of someone's hand for actually knowing something about a subject. To repeat, the information is there IF YOU WANT TO USE IT. If you don't want to use it, then you don't have to. But "paralysis by analysis?" Please.
Just now, I'm trying to find an interesting marking scheme for a 1920 Pattern Rolls Royce Armored Car for Iraq in the 1920's--unfortunately, the most interesting ones are all rebuilt Model 1914 cars, and I don't want to have to scratchbuild a turret, so the search goes on. In the meantime, I have a couple of Dragon Shermans on the bench to keep me busy. And yes, I've even found two particular tanks I am trying to depict, thanks to Steve Zaloga's research. If I ever get a digital camera, I'll be sure to shoot a few pictures.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, November 30, 2009 - 10:35 AM UTC
You describe yourself as just an "average" modeller as opposed to a "contest winner", Gerald. Well how's about this for a thought: If you'd have put half the energy into building and painting as you have into research these past 35 years, maybe you'd be another Verlinden, MIG, Cihlar or Stutcinkas by now? An exaggeration maybe - but not, I'd wager, by much.

But like I said before - research away to your heart's content if that's what makes you happy. And no one is slapping anyone down simply for "being knowledgeable".

No. What grates people's gears is the way that the "experten" hijack even threads that ask the most straightforward of questions that demand only straightforward, uncomplicated answers.

It's as if they just have to constantly parade their "expertise" and have their egos massaged at each and every opportunity ("Thank you, oh Great Fount Of All Wisdom. Pray, tell me more. For thou art just so eminently ….. knowledgeable"). Perhaps they lead unfulfilling lives outside the hobby, and forums such as this are where they need to seek vindication and admiration. Who knows?

But in any case, this thread is a case in point. The OP even specifically said that historical accuracy is secondary, and that he's just looking for a nice KT to build. Then when a couple of us dare to suggest just let the guy build the thing (silly of us, I know ), in wades Mr. Tiger Tank himself with that hackneyed old "why not just paint it pink then" nonsense.

I think that Gary's "paralysis by analysis" comment sums the whole thing up perfectly. Most of us however know this terrible affliction by its more familiar abbreviation: A.M.S. (Advanced Modelling Syndrome).

Anyway, here's a link you may find interesting:

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=digital+camera&_sacat=See-All-Categories

I did think I might be able to help with your 1920 Rolls Royce AC problem as well, but when I checked my Issue 45 of AFV Modeller, it turned out that the feature was a 1914 Pattern vehicle, and boring monotone green to boot. Sorry about that - but one out of two ain't bad!

- Steve
Eloranta
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Hame, Finland
Joined: November 30, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 07:09 PM UTC
I found this thread while looking for info about Tamiya King Tiger, and I'm glad I did. Steve Riley makes solid point, model making should be fun. If someone gets his/hers kicks out of rivet counting that's fine. On the other hand most of the time I found myself being very happy with kit maker's instructions, say for example with camo patterns/colors. At the end of the day when that finished model sits on a shelf, no one is going to come and say "that detail is wrong". Or if I choose to publish it on one of these sites and someone starts ranting about inaccuracies, I simply ignore those people. The most important thing is to make that damn thing and get it finished...at some point

I actually DML 6232 KT under construction and hey, color scheme is going to be...not pink with golden spots but primer red possibly with dunkelgelb outer wheels. Other kit under way is Jagdpanther with...wait for it... steel wheels And I'm having loads of fun doing those two. Then there's Tamiya Marder III M waiting for it's turn, I have all the bells and whistles for it and even some reference material. More "serious build" if you will. So I think that I have found a happy medium with my modeling habits. And now I
spitfire303
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Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 07:49 PM UTC
yeah great,

what's the point of digging out threads 3 months old? You should be an archaeologist I guess.
Eloranta
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Hame, Finland
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Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 10:01 PM UTC
Well, what can I say, sorry if I ruined your day
stevieneon
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Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2015 - 11:06 PM UTC

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Well, what can I say, sorry if I ruined your day



hahaha.....good thread. Even 5 years later, full of interesting comments.
Bodeen
#026
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Joined: June 08, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:23 AM UTC

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How difficult are the special production Cyber-hobby kits to find? I've looked for kit #6400 on a number of sites (e.g. Mission Models, Sprue Brothers, etc.) with no luck. The only place I've seen it is on the shelf of the hobby store I visited recently (where I passed on it) and the review on Missing Lynx. I'm wondering whether I should have pounced on it ...




You can sometimes find these kits on eBay at ridiculous prices...or you might go to the "buy, Sell, Trade" forum here and maybe someone can help you out.

Jeff
RLlockie
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 01:06 AM UTC
Is there a recognised relationship between historical knowledge and modelling ability?

I ask because this response comes up pretty regularly when someone offers historical information and the individual's contribution is dismissed on the grounds that they have not presented evidence of their modelling skills. Has anyone seen any of Hilary Doyle's models? Does he even build any? More importantly, does this have any relevance at all to his capabilities as a researcher and draughtsman?

Similarly, think of a lot of well-regarded modellers and ask how many of them have carried out consistent serious research into primary sources. You might find a rather low level of correlation.

I'm not sure that lack of evidence to support ability in one discipline is terribly relevant to someone's ability in another. This has the warning signs of another spat about 'rivet counting', which didn't end all that well last time it popped up here.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 01:07 AM UTC

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How difficult are the special production Cyber-hobby kits to find? I've looked for kit #6400 on a number of sites (e.g. Mission Models, Sprue Brothers, etc.) with no luck. The only place I've seen it is on the shelf of the hobby store I visited recently (where I passed on it) and the review on Missing Lynx. I'm wondering whether I should have pounced on it ...




You can sometimes find these kits on eBay at ridiculous prices...or you might go to the "buy, Sell, Trade" forum here and maybe someone can help you out.

Jeff



As he posted in 2009 I'm hoping he's been successful by now.

Talk about a rave from the grave, or should I say in good ol' Herbert's case a rant from the grave......
Bodeen
#026
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 03:13 AM UTC

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How difficult are the special production Cyber-hobby kits to find? I've looked for kit #6400 on a number of sites (e.g. Mission Models, Sprue Brothers, etc.) with no luck. The only place I've seen it is on the shelf of the hobby store I visited recently (where I passed on it) and the review on Missing Lynx. I'm wondering whether I should have pounced on it ...




You can sometimes find these kits on eBay at ridiculous prices...or you might go to the "buy, Sell, Trade" forum here and maybe someone can help you out.

Jeff



As he posted in 2009 I'm hoping he's been successful by now.

Talk about a rave from the grave, or should I say in good ol' Herbert's case a rant from the grave......



Wow...talk about feeling foolish. I didn't even look at the date. A freaking 6 year old post....well those Cyber Hobby kits are REALLY expensive now!

Jeff
AFVFan
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 04:53 PM UTC
This is just more proof that some things never change....
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, August 24, 2015 - 09:43 PM UTC
There are two camps, "the researchers" and the "it's my build group". Things havent changed much. I really don't understand the issue. Most builders appricIate both groups and grumble when they start spatting at one another. I agree with Gerald Owens point that the post is read by many more than the original poster. Most builders want to know the most accurate information about the kit they are building. Most try to reduce or eliminate inaccuraces that their skills allow. Some opt to buying the most accurate kit they can find while others are open to scratch building repairs (think about Dragons M103). I for one want to know the most accurate kit of the vehicle type I am looking for as it saves me time and I have a heads up on what I can improve on with my skills. I know the researchers can be a little direct but OCD people can be and thats OK. The "I don't care group" must realize they are not the only reader and the researcher wasn't attacking them. As to the posting of work, I must hang my head in shame. I don't have a single photo of my work posted. I have two "Best of Show" awards but I don't post because right or wrong I feel like it would be "See what fantastic work I did! Now praise me". So I don't post photo's. If I was having a problem then I would post a photo with a request for help. P.S. Researchers please post photo's of what you are pointing out if possable. Some one was very helpful by posting a couple photo's in the painted tools discusion I was in.
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