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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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Vietnam Grafitti?
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 08:59 AM UTC
Hi guys,
Okay, here is a bit of an obscure one for you & I might not be in the right forum for this anyway, but here goes.
Figures, in my opinion, are an essential addition to any diorama. They help to tell the story of what's going on in the scene. Photographs of the Vietnam war often depict grunts sporting weird & wonderful grafitti on their helmets & flak jackets. I've been trying to source some good references on this subject for sometime now but have drawn a complete blank.
Can anyone point me in the right direction for good reference material on this subject, please?
I'm looking for books, photographs, interesting quotes that were daubed across the back of a flak jacket or some other garment & as much information as I can possibly get.
I know that peace symbols, both the CND sign & even the swastika ( the swastika is in actual fact a Buddhist peace symbol ) were sometimes seen daubed across helmets & flak jackets but what else?
Any help on this subject would be truly appreciated.
Thankyou kindly, in advance.
Joe.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:11 AM UTC
I don't know of any books or referances dedicated to GI helmet/flak vest grafitti. I do know many had a short timer's calander where they marked down the months or final days of their tour. The peace symbol and flags were also popular.

A correction on your swastika though. The Buddist peace symbol is not a true swastika. The American Indian (yes, look up US 45th Infantry Div) and ancient Norse symbol used as the German Swastika has the ends of the legs pointing to the right.


The Buddist peace symbol has the ends of the legs pointing to the left.


Make sure you use the right one so there are Buddists in Vietnam, and not Nazis.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:14 AM UTC
Hi joe... Just think of any kind of nickname , like junior or , geek, zippo, blaster, Big Bad Wolf, Bro with the fro. Stuff like that Or one of those bad boy names ,like killer, Death Gunner, Ripper , Born killer, trained killer and the like. Use your imagination as any nickname will do. Have any of your friends in the fire brigade got nicknames? Maybe use one of those names...........Al
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:19 AM UTC
Fair point, Gino!
Yeah, I know the Nazis turned it back to front & rotated it 45 degrees. There's a photo of a GI in a book I have in 1970 wearing one as a pendant around his neck. I had to do a double take & then realised that the Nazis did actually hijack the sign & used it for their own symbolism & that it was originally a sign of peace.
Thanks anyway, mate.
Joe.
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi joe... Just think of any kind of nickname , like junior or , geek, zippo, blaster, Big Bad Wolf, Bro with the fro. Stuff like that Or one of those bad boy names ,like killer, Death Gunner, Ripper , Born killer, trained killer and the like. Use your imagination as any nickname will do. Have any of your friends in the fire brigade got nicknames? Maybe use one of those names...........Al

Hi Al,
How are you doing?
Oh yeah, we have nicknames in the fire brigade alright! But they're more derogatory than anything else. I cant really write "chocolate teapot" across the back of a flak jacket, can I? LOL
But your point is definitely taken Al. I see what you mean. Thanks for the pointer.
Joe.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:46 AM UTC
Doing great Joe, thanks for asking. By the way....by total coincidence...last night I poped into the CD player the movie "Platoon". The uniforms and equipment in that movie are very authentic. It would be a good reference.
muchachos
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:50 AM UTC
I don't know about the graffiti, but I know a bit about the swastika. It was not only Buddhist, but its use began in the New Stone age, about 11000 years ago. It was commonly taken to mean good luck before its association with the Nazi stigma. It is possible to paint it either way without evoking Nazi meanings - for instance the Hindu swastika, which symbolizes harmony.



I would check your references, however, to see if you can find what directions the GIs (is that even correct for Vietnam era? ) had. A quick google search has turned these results up.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?107492-Vietnam-War-graffiti
http://img180.imageshack.us/i/graffitihelmetru6.jpg/
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15896&pid=254153&st=20&#entry254153
Here's some souvenir helmet graffiti mugs - idk if these are accurate, but some are good http://www.zazzle.ca/militaryextras/gifts?cg=196502194228300263


Quoted Text

Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil because I am the most evil mother f**ker in the valley



:D
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 10:11 AM UTC
Hi Scott,
Thanks very much indeed for sharing your knowledge about the swastika. Very insightful.
Thanks also for the links you supplied. Some of this stuff really helps.
I really love the mugs!
Joe.
Thatguy
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 10:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know of any books or referances dedicated to GI helmet/flak vest grafitti. I do know many had a short timer's calander where they marked down the months or final days of their tour. The peace symbol and flags were also popular.

A correction on your swastika though. The Buddist peace symbol is not a true swastika. The American Indian (yes, look up US 45th Infantry Div) and ancient Norse symbol used as the German Swastika has the ends of the legs pointing to the right.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wgh3P0eqLmk/SS31VOSbBNI/AAAAAAAADCQ/blQwQPnoxas/s400/swastika.png

The Buddist peace symbol has the ends of the legs pointing to the left.
http://www.san-shin.net/images/SGS-Bogwangsa-03.JPG


Swastikas in Buddhism (and other south and east Asian religions) can be found point in both directions and have different meanings depending on the directions they point. Association with the Nazis has apparently led to the general disuse of the right handed one by Buddhists. There seems to be a fair amount of visual evidence that the left hand version continues to be an important symbol in Hinduism. The 45-degree canting seems to be the far more important distinction.
muchachos
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 10:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There seems to be a fair amount of visual evidence that it continues to be an important symbol in Hinduism.



Yeah, I have a Hindu friend who has the symbol on some of the religious decorations in her house.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 11:59 AM UTC
Remember, too, Hell's Angels had a certain cachet back then and as reported in the New York Times, had "swastikas on their helmets." It would be no little stretch to imagine soldiers inthe field, some of whom may have had connections with outlaw bikers sporting swastikas either to appear bada$$ or as a sign of white supremacy.
tskross
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 12:38 PM UTC
I would check out the photojournalist Tim Page's work he has many pics of soldier graffiti both on body armor and vehicles, you would probably get a good idea. And he has a famous photo of a young black soldier wearing a swastika pendant, upon asking him about it he quotes the kid as saying (and this is a direct quote so forgive its offensiveness) "so what? I ain't no jew boy" And there is also a famous picture of an M113 with a nazi flag (approproated by Oliver Stone in 'Platoon')
so the swastika may not be being used in the Bhuddist context.

I do not mean any disrespect or offense by this, I'm simply quoting sources
NormSon
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 01:47 PM UTC
And don't forget a Playboy Bunny! They were everywhere.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 03:43 PM UTC
I'm not aware of any specific book or article on the subject of soldier graffiti, though it would probably make an interesting study for a sociologist. But it was never a matter of "anything goes." The Army would only tolerate so much dissent. By 1970, a very common piece of graffiti on helmet covers was the acronym FTA, meaning "F--- the Army." As the war progressed, the vast proportion of the troops were draftees who didn't care what happened to Vietnam, and simply wanted to get in and get out alive. FTA was discreet enough that the "lifers" (career noncoms and officers) would not spot the rebellious sentiment.
The Marines, on the other hand, were an all-volunteer force, and such expressions of protest were less common on their gear.
If you'd like to research it further, the archives of Time-Life are a gold mine of photos of Vietnam era GI's, and much of it is available online.


Quoted Text

Hi guys,
Okay, here is a bit of an obscure one for you & I might not be in the right forum for this anyway, but here goes.
Figures, in my opinion, are an essential addition to any diorama. They help to tell the story of what's going on in the scene. Photographs of the Vietnam war often depict grunts sporting weird & wonderful grafitti on their helmets & flak jackets. I've been trying to source some good references on this subject for sometime now but have drawn a complete blank.
Can anyone point me in the right direction for good reference material on this subject, please?

Joe.

KoSprueOne
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 04:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know about the graffiti, but I know a bit about the swastika. It was not only Buddhist, but its use began in the New Stone age, about 11000 years ago. It was commonly taken to mean good luck before its association with the Nazi stigma. It is possible to paint it either way without evoking Nazi meanings - for instance the Hindu swastika, which symbolizes harmony.




true, this can be in the square or diamond pattern, left or right




trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 05:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi guys,
Okay, here is a bit of an obscure one for you & I might not be in the right forum for this anyway, but here goes.
Figures, in my opinion, are an essential addition to any diorama. They help to tell the story of what's going on in the scene. Photographs of the Vietnam war often depict grunts sporting weird & wonderful grafitti on their helmets & flak jackets. I've been trying to source some good references on this subject for sometime now but have drawn a complete blank.
Can anyone point me in the right direction for good reference material on this subject, please?
I'm looking for books, photographs, interesting quotes that were daubed across the back of a flak jacket or some other garment & as much information as I can possibly get.
I know that peace symbols, both the CND sign & even the swastika ( the swastika is in actual fact a Buddhist peace symbol ) were sometimes seen daubed across helmets & flak jackets but what else?
Any help on this subject would be truly appreciated.
Thankyou kindly, in advance.
Joe.



a lot of that stuff depended on the actual time frame. I remember having FTA written in big letters on one side, and my home state written on the back. On the front I wore the mushrum. Never really noticed any writting on a flak jacket, but it seems right. We only used them as pillows and to help stay warm on mountain tops. I've seen guys with their short timer's calander inked in on the side of the helmet covers as well
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 05:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi joe... Just think of any kind of nickname , like junior or , geek, zippo, blaster, Big Bad Wolf, Bro with the fro. Stuff like that Or one of those bad boy names ,like killer, Death Gunner, Ripper , Born killer, trained killer and the like. Use your imagination as any nickname will do. Have any of your friends in the fire brigade got nicknames? Maybe use one of those names...........Al



Damn! I forgot one of the most common ones along with the peace symbol. The ace of spades was common. Guys that planed on staying in the Army forever usually had a clean helmet cover as did the guys in the rear. Boony rats were a completely different story, and just about anything was the norm
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 05:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi joe... Just think of any kind of nickname , like junior or , geek, zippo, blaster, Big Bad Wolf, Bro with the fro. Stuff like that Or one of those bad boy names ,like killer, Death Gunner, Ripper , Born killer, trained killer and the like. Use your imagination as any nickname will do. Have any of your friends in the fire brigade got nicknames? Maybe use one of those names...........Al

Hi Al,
How are you doing?
Oh yeah, we have nicknames in the fire brigade alright! But they're more derogatory than anything else. I cant really write "chocolate teapot" across the back of a flak jacket, can I? LOL
But your point is definitely taken Al. I see what you mean. Thanks for the pointer.
Joe.



I saw a lot of Confederate battle flags
glt
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 05:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Doing great Joe, thanks for asking. By the way....by total coincidence...last night I poped into the CD player the movie "Platoon". The uniforms and equipment in that movie are very authentic. It would be a good reference.



guys were too clean! But still a start. A typical guy in the bush carried three 300 round belts of 7.62 ball, a normal load out of 21 mags (30 round ones if he could get them) , a couple grenades and at least two guys in every squad carried a couple smoke grenades. Only folks I saw with suspenders were officers. Often they had vest made up that held mags in front of them. Otherwise they just slung the cloth bandoliers around them them. Usually two canteens, and a ruck sack. Their pants pockets would be baggy from all the odds & ends in them. Many guys carried knives and their own side arms. The radio man never carried ammo belts, but usually had a rifle and a 45. Towls around the necks were common as well as tee shirts (O.D. or black pocket tee shirts were common). Pants were not usually bloused except when leeches were in the area.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 05:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm not aware of any specific book or article on the subject of soldier graffiti, though it would probably make an interesting study for a sociologist. But it was never a matter of "anything goes." The Army would only tolerate so much dissent. By 1970, a very common piece of graffiti on helmet covers was the acronym FTA, meaning "F--- the Army." As the war progressed, the vast proportion of the troops were draftees who didn't care what happened to Vietnam, and simply wanted to get in and get out alive. FTA was discreet enough that the "lifers" (career noncoms and officers) would not spot the rebellious sentiment.
The Marines, on the other hand, were an all-volunteer force, and such expressions of protest were less common on their gear.
If you'd like to research it further, the archives of Time-Life are a gold mine of photos of Vietnam era GI's, and much of it is available online.


Quoted Text

Hi guys,
Okay, here is a bit of an obscure one for you & I might not be in the right forum for this anyway, but here goes.
Figures, in my opinion, are an essential addition to any diorama. They help to tell the story of what's going on in the scene. Photographs of the Vietnam war often depict grunts sporting weird & wonderful grafitti on their helmets & flak jackets. I've been trying to source some good references on this subject for sometime now but have drawn a complete blank.
Can anyone point me in the right direction for good reference material on this subject, please?

Joe.




Marines had a lot of draftees in 1967, 68, and 69. Never paid much attention to what they wore, but know they felt about as much love for their 24 month vacation as the guys in the Army did.
gary
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 06:53 PM UTC
Hiya fellas,
I've loved reading all this stuff here. It's so insightful, dont you think!
I think it's a subject that has had too little exposure over the years & it would make a superb study for a book!
If there's anyone out there who has a book in 'em...
Keep your memories coming guys!
Joe.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 07:02 PM UTC
Nice that you had first hand information Gary, but you and I both know that no two guys carried the same equipment in the same way. You cant tell me that an RTO never carried ammo or other gear cause you didn't have eyes on every RTO in Viet NAM. That ANPRC77 was pretty heavy but some of those boys were pretty big. gimme a break and get real. I remember s**t loads of news footage and just about anything goes. A lot of guys did blouse their boots to keep the critters out and if ammo was needed anyone with room on their rucks carried it. I had buddies in the bees that were Marines back then and that is what they said. And by the way I do personally appreciate your tour over there. I was a shipboard guy then but would have gone and like you ,done my best to do the mission and above all to stay alive ,had they sent me.
Mark
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 09:34 PM UTC
AAH Vietnam! my favourite modeling subject!
And speaking of graffiti, I'm about to release (in a few days) a new little decal set that contains exactly that!

best regards
Mark
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 11:13 PM UTC
Hey Mark,
Do you remember that we spoke back on the 21st November last year? I sent you an email about this very subject after buying your whole range of decals & posters?
I cant believe you've done it! Oh, that is great news! I'm so pleased!
I'll definitely be buying a 2 or 3 sets of those, my friend! I'll keep an eye on your site. Mabye you could email me. Perhaps we could have a chat about some more ideas!
By the way, if anybody who is interested & following this thread, Mark here, from Mecmodels produces some of the finest Vietnam related products around. Some of these really exciting subjects are unique to the market. I can honestly highly recommend his work. Keep it Mark.
Thanks mate, for letting me know.
God luck to you & keep up the good work!
Joe.
Mark
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 11:21 PM UTC
Hi Joe,

sure I remember! It's your idea that made me do this (thanks for that!)

I'm glad you like them, they will be available very soon, just keep an eye out on this and a few other modeling sites.

best regards
Mark
 _GOTOTOP