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Dioramas: Buildings & Ruins
Ruined buildings and city scenes.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Duplicating Mini-art buildings??
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Which is one of the great things about this site. I am a photographer and a writer. When someone just "makes themselves a copy" of my work they are stealing my work, and the money with which I support myself. Want to make a copy of something that I have done? Ask me, and I will sell or give you the right to do it. Many people seem to think that they aren't hurting me when they copy my work without paying for it. Believe me, you are, I price my work based on the perhaps foolish idea that folks will respect the time and effort that I put into it enough to give me what it is worth.



It's a pretty sad state of affairs when it's necessary to constantly keep repeating comments like those of John. No, at no point would anyone say its illegal to copy items for your own use. However, the moment it's published here or anywhere else, it becomes an open invitation to go that 'little bit further'. Several posters have clearly laid out techniques to create your own moulds. Why then, are we still seeing the barrack-room lawyers posting with their interpretation of the Laws of Copyright?

It's an ethical decision, but hey who gives a crap? What do we need the manufacturers for anyway?
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 06:04 AM UTC
Personally , I have molded a building from Miniart's Austrian city building. Did not do it to cheat or copy or to rip anyone off. I did it because I totally messed up cutting out the parts and would have thrown the thing away otherwise. Using liquid latex for the mold and then lightweight hydrocal for the cast the thing came out great. It is soft and fragile but it paints much better as you can use washes that soak in to the plaster for that old faded look. I would never do this for resale, but have no problem with copying something that I have already purchased for myself. This hobby is getting very expensive an you can bet that the model companies do not cry for us when they charge us high prices so in turn I will not cry for them if I made a copy for myself. My partially finished Austrian building can be seen in my photos..........Al
downtowndeco
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 06:31 AM UTC
We offer hydrocal plaster buildings with laser cut wood windows/doors and shattered glass. Check the line out at;

www.dioramasplus.com

Randy Pepprock
Dioramas Plus
Neo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 07:41 AM UTC
Yeah - I'll bite.

Jim - Thank you for using John’s argument about copying copyrighted materials. I say this because John is (shockingly enough) talking about a very different subject than the original post by Damian. Damian is requesting information on how to modify copy and extend the use of a product that he purchased. John is talking about people copying his photos & writing (that B what we’s backrooms lawyers calls “Intellectual Property”) w/out his permission and that really is both ethically and legally wrong. While both use the word “copy” it has a little bit different meaning for each.

And yes it is sad… but not for those reasons.
It’s sad that people try to pass their opinions off as fact and cry when they are called out. That really pisses us real “experts” off – see below.
It’s sad when people can’t follow the basic idea behind a post in the forums and argue about things that have no relevance to the original subject.
It’s sad when some one (who is not an expert on everything which is SO rare on the internet) asks a simple question and they are tarred & feathered.
It sad that I have not been Deified or issued Omnipotent Powers – but I digress…

So why see posts like this?
Perhaps it’s because the owner of the site is an American.
And he set this site up like America – to be an free and open exchange of ideas.
That’s what makes this site great, like America, is that we can come together and share out thoughts and ideas for a greater modeling community or a greater county. Or maybe that’s just BS, I don’t really know.

Disclosure:
I am not a Lawyer or expert on anything (thank God cause lawyers are mostly poop heads and I am obliviously just a wonderful person) BUT, BUT, in my former profession I did deal w/ Copyright and Intellectual Property issues on a daily basis and I do have a more than working knowledge of those laws.
Also I was bored while I’m waiting for paint to dry on the E-5 I’m building (which I know is odd that I am actually building a model) so I wrote this for fun, to pass the time, so don’t get your panties in a bunch if don’t like it. Remember it’s just a hobby.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 08:00 AM UTC
I agree totally with Tom. So what, if someone copies something for personal use to keep and modify for themselves. If you do not claim it as your own origin or try to sell it, there should be no hand wringing and frazzled feelings about this. As for the why don't you just buy another one ......not everyone has the money to do so or has the talent to create out of nothing. Gotta remember that this is a hobby meant for fun and not everyone has the same talent. We are all of different strengths and weaknesses in this. The pros need not use this forum for their own back patting...........Al.........(edit)...and as for Miniart buildings , I gotta say that they are terrific and intend to order more of them.
CReading
#001
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 09:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As for the why don't you just buy another one ......not everyone has the money to do so or has the talent to create out of nothing.



not to mention the impracticability of building a vacu-form wall just to tear it apart to be used as debris. (you'd use more plaster to fill the gaps/hole than to make a plaster copy)

Protecting photographs online....watermarks

C.
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 11:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So why see posts like this?
Perhaps it’s because the owner of the site is an American.
And he set this site up like America – to be an free and open exchange of ideas.
That’s what makes this site great, like America, is that we can come together and share out thoughts and ideas for a greater modeling community or a greater county. Or maybe that’s just BS, I don’t really know.



Oh really? WE going to get a chorus of the star-spangled banner as well?

Coming out of your episode of the Waltons for a moment, no manufacturer or publisher would come near us if we had an 'anything goes' policy.

Point, I REALLY admire the U.S. stand on copyright protection. It's one of the few countries who take it REALLY seriously. Case in point. Last week, one of the biggest producers and distributors of movies announced they were considering stopping ALL sales to Spain. Good for them. This country (Spain) has an attitude that Piracy is the right of every citizen - an attitude which turns my stomach.

You are missing the point entirely. I repect the right of anyone to cut up, rework or do what they like with a model (call it conversions if you will). What I didn't like were the following comments regarding how to make copies of these kits, now, i've NO doubt that all of you will be doing it for personal reasons and you're not going to suddenly open up on E-Bay. There are though people who see anyone else's work as an invitation to make an extra buck. It's THOSE reptiles i'm more worried about.

At the end of the day it's a LOT easier making a Lego or balsa frame mould and doing your own building sections. Vac-Form doesn't lend itself to copying
CReading
#001
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 01:34 PM UTC
[quote]What I didn't like were the following comments regarding how to make copies of these kits, now, i've NO doubt that all of you will be doing it for personal reasons and you're not going to suddenly open up on E-Bay. There are though people who see anyone else's work as an invitation to make an extra buck. It's THOSE reptiles i'm more worried about. [quote]

In his second posting (4th post to the thread) Damian says:


Quoted Text

The problem is i want to model chunks of the building around the plastic one. I just thought would be easier to do it this way. Rather than to buy another kit and break it up. Plaster just seems easier to work with.



I believe that's what folks were pointing out....how to replicate the kit piece with reasonable enough accuracy so when broken up into pieces it could be identified as having come from that particular building. No one to my reading of the thread is advocating replicating the complete kit in plaster for some nefarious purpose.

[quote]There are though people who see anyone else's work as an invitation to make an extra buck. It's THOSE reptiles i'm more worried about.[quote]

Maybe I've missed something here but are "those reptiles" really perusing the forums here at Armorama looking for tips on how to bootleg plastic kits? And if so has this thread really provided them with a solid foothold to destroy the hobby?

I agree with you 100% on the piracy issue that is pervasive within the hobby. It should be recognized as illegal and those selling copies should not be patronized.
I'm just not sure the intent of the original post was such that he categorized as attempting to somehow undermine MiniArt by using a kit part to replicate debris.

Here's some wishful thinking:
Perhaps those in charge at MiniArt will see this thread and release a small kit with wall and building debris to be used with their excellent kits!

Cheers,
Charles
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 01:58 PM UTC
Someday, when I finish my cast Austrian city building , I will be sure to mention that the original one came from Miniart. Miniart does nice stuff and they will not loose money on me as I will continue to buy their buildings. .....Good night grandpa, good night Mary Ellen, good night Jim Bob.......good night John Boy. .............Al
SGTROCK
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 04:40 PM UTC
I think this wouldn't have stirred up if the original posts title was Creating rubble/wall pieces to use with Miniart buildings vs duplicating the buildings.
Pyromaniac
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 10:24 AM UTC
Perhaps i should point out that miniart buildings are only made of thin styrene sheet, and therefore the assembled buildings are hollow. As the original post stated, the purpose of the castings was to create rubble. Obviously, cutting up a miniart building would not give good results, whereas a solid plaster cast would. I see no ethical issues at all here, buying another kit is completely out of the question.
In terms of practicality, moulding with the inside would only give the general shape but no detail. If you are prepared to add detail yourself once the casting is removed, then this seems highly possible. An alternative method would be to use the vacuform parts to cast a detailed latex negative, with which new plaster castings could be made. As people have already pointed out though, there are other method which may yeild better results.
And i apologise for contributing to a topic which has more become a flaming thread than anything offering helpful advice.
exer
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 10:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As the original post stated, the purpose of the castings was to create rubble.



Well the problem is that actually he didn't say that in the original post


Quoted Text

Would it be possible to pour plaster of paris into the back of the plastic building and simply create a negative mould?



That's why the thread took off in the way that it did.

As for making rubble it would be easier to just cast some plaster sheets in wooden, plasticard or even cardboard moulds and carve to shape.

You can also get ineteresting effects and textures by using those plastic trays that meat or fruit come on (Wash them first though )
muchachos
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 10:47 AM UTC
I am no expert, but doesn't a building, when it is turned into rubble, become a heap of separate bricks, etc? Not a hunk of wall, bricks stuck together? It seems to me that Damian needs some bricks to make rubble heaps, not a casting of part of a wall.

My 2 c/

Scott
JimboHUN
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 10:48 AM UTC
In my humble opinion, why can't he make a copy of a part of a kit he has just purchased?

If I buy a Stryker, for example, and I need a 5th, spare wheel, I can copy it for myself, why not?

(I never do it though)

But, for example, getting one piece of track link and copy it instead of buying it is really not ethical. And also, borrowing parts in order to make a copy.

But copying part(s) of something you have paid for, for personal use only, in my opinion is no big deal.

Kind regards,
Adam
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 11:02 AM UTC
Hi Damian

Well apart from all the excellent suggestions already made regarding your enquiry here is another possibility for your rubble and ruin requirements.
A company who produces moulds of exactly that.

http://www.kancali.com/Wallsections.html

Scroll down the page to the second item "Rubble Moulds"

No moulds to make yourself just mix up the plaster and away you go.

Personally I'd try the simple box mould and carve my own, but its just another possibility I thought worth considering.

Alan
sgtreef
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 11:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But isnt this what modellers do with almost anything they creat molds of?...for example rubber molds of Verlindens photoetch leaves used recently in a feature article, molding extra wheels taken from a kit...doesnt this all fall under the same ethical constraints?

I assumed that this would be based under the same catogory. I do not wish to sell these, but simply want to recreate it, break it apart, and use it in the base of a diorama.

Cheers Damian.



Bingo everybody makes a copy of something instead of buying a whole kit for one wheel.

No offense Jim as I have a few of their buildings and they are good.

Would never copy there stuff as too much work involved would have to make two molds.

Cheers and best to use a plaster building as rubble or get some bricks from Verlinden or somewhere or even better make your own box cast the plaster draw some lines and brake them apart but do put some paint in the plaster as cuts down on the white of it.
grimmo
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Posted: Friday, April 16, 2010 - 07:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text



It's an ethical decision, but hey who gives a crap? What do we need the manufacturers for anyway?



Dry your eyes princess. you have made your point.


I have made copies of small parts, but larger stuff i wouldn't. Mainly as i don't have the skill, and for the copyright reason as well. If i wanted something made commercially, i would buy it. Rubble and stuff like that, i look for accessory kits first, then try and scratch build it later. It's easier now that a lot of manufacturers have accessory kits.
JohnHobson
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Posted: Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 04:20 AM UTC
Anyone have a set of the Miniart Jeep Crew?

If so, have a look at the holster for the colt and the waterbottle carrier.
Dragon Gen2.

anyway, back to the the point in question; I say copy to your hearts content if you don't intend selling it and you bought the master.

John
strnge
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Posted: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 07:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

im also curious to attempt the lego block method. Creating a generic building structure, pouring the plaster in and breaking it apart.



G'day Damian,

Real easy mate, check out this article - it's used to make a road, but you can use the technique for any wall or such structure:

Basemaking for Beginners: Urban Road by: Engin Kayral

I'm pretty surprised none of the posters above referred you to this article

Rudi



Thanks for the post
 _GOTOTOP