Duplicating Mini-art buildings??
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 08:59 PM UTC
Hi Guys,
Im after a building in 1/35 scale. Ive been looking at Mini-Art buldings online and have found that the building structure itself is vaccum formed plastic.
Would it be possible to pour plaster of paris into the back of the plastic building and simply create a negative mould?
Heres a link of the part, looks possible.
Cheers Damian
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:12 PM UTC
Why couldn't you simply buy ANOTHER building?
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:18 PM UTC
From a technical point of view, yes, but of course the inside of the vac formed building won't be as sharp and detailed as the outside and this is what you get with using the "inside" of the building as your mould.
I won't comment on the issues of copying and duplicating as this will be obvious and largely depend on how you plan to use said results.
There is a company in the UK that sells vac formed "moulds" for the very purpose you speak of, so yes it certainly can be done. See link
http://www.form-u-lay.co.uk/index.php Alan
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:30 PM UTC
The problem is i want to model chunks of the building around the plastic one. I just thought would be easier to do it this way. Rather than to buy another kit and break it up. Plaster just seems easier to work with.
Cheers
Damian
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:37 PM UTC
Technically, the biggest problem would be removing the plaster from inside the Vac-Formed parts.
Ethically, the biggest problem would be COPYING a commercial product. the best way would be to scratch-build and buy some of MiniArt's building accesory sets.
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:46 PM UTC
Heck be like Dragon Academy Trumpeter and copy all that comes your way.
They do Academy has done it for years of Tamiya stuff and sold it.
Well now they make their own stuff.
So if you want to use it for yourself go ahead and do it.
Just don't sell it to nobody.
I have also made copies of buildings that were plaster from long gone Kurton but have never used them yet.
My opinion only.
United Kingdom
Joined: January 16, 2007
KitMaker: 1,226 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Heck be like Dragon Academy Trumpeter and copy all that comes your way.
They do Academy has done it for years of Tamiya stuff and sold it.
Well now they make their own stuff.
Ahem ... "two wrongs don't make a right" ring any bells?
Quoted Text
So if you want to use it for yourself go ahead and do it.
Just don't sell it to nobody.
I have also made copies of buildings that were plaster from long gone Kurton but have never used them yet.
My opinion only.
Nonetheless, this is tue. If you don't sell your copies, there's only one ethical problem - can you live with yourself for depriving Mini-Art of a further sale?
seán
never knowingly underscale
Fly Navy - Sail Army - Walk Sideways
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:59 PM UTC
But isnt this what modellers do with almost anything they creat molds of?...for example rubber molds of Verlindens photoetch leaves used recently in a feature article, molding extra wheels taken from a kit...doesnt this all fall under the same ethical constraints?
I assumed that this would be based under the same catogory. I do not wish to sell these, but simply want to recreate it, break it apart, and use it in the base of a diorama.
Cheers Damian.
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
Australia
Joined: December 10, 2009
KitMaker: 83 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 09:59 PM UTC
Ive tried doing this also Damian but it didnt turn out very good.
I eventualy went to my local art supply store and bought a tub of brush on latex rubber and made my own moulds varying from building ruins to road wheels and am now about to commence (attempt) tank hulls !
#023
Zurich, Switzerland
Joined: March 13, 2009
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:01 PM UTC
If I understand you correctly Damian, you just don't like the vacu form material ond would rather work with plaster, so it's not an issue of getting two, right? Legally I don't see a problem with that, like has been stated before, as long as you don't sell any of it.
Technically it's not possible though, as the inside of the parts don't have any details, you would just get the basic shape without details. You would have to make a new mold of the front of the parts.
HTH!
Cheers!
Stefan
Too many models - too little time...
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:02 PM UTC
Thanks for the reply, im also curious to attempt the lego block method. Creating a generic building structure, pouring the plaster in and breaking it apart.
Havent tried any molding before.
Cheers Damian
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:04 PM UTC
Jeff, techinically, copying something for your own use is not (completely) illegal.
However, i'm afraid that there are a number of issues with this which make me extremely uncomfortable.
1) If it comes down to the 'purely' economic, the MiniArt building sets are not exactly expensive. Buying another set wouldn't exactly break the bank.
2) MiniArt are NOT exactly a large company, they have certainly made huge leaps in the last few years and are getting a larger part of the market, but they're not exactly GM.
3) While I wouldn't class this as serious as the problems that companies such as Alpine have had in the last year or two, copying DOES impact on a company's sales. At the end of the day, this means fewer new products and less for R+D.
4) Speaking personally, I know all of those involved with MiniArt personally and due to the considerable mutual assistence between ourselves and them, I find the above comments pretty embarrassing.
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:11 PM UTC
I seemed to have stirred up the hornets nest here.
I think il go ahead and just scratchbuild my own building, i think that would be the more correct and ethical way of going about it. Especially if i intend to use it in campaigns and such.
Sorry for offending anyone associated with Miniart.
Cheers for the help guys.
Damian
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
But isnt this what modellers do with almost anything they creat molds of?...for example rubber molds of Verlindens photoetch leaves used recently in a feature article, molding extra wheels taken from a kit...doesnt this all fall under the same ethical constraints?
I assumed that this would be based under the same catogory. I do not wish to sell these, but simply want to recreate it, break it apart, and use it in the base of a diorama.
The policy of this Site is clear. We DON'T advocate copying commercial products, we support manufacturers in their fight against piracy.
However, at the end of the day, we aren't the 'Net Police. If people want to make personal copies (as long as their conscience is OK with that) we are aren't going to make any judgements.
Unfortunately some of the comments were a little unfortunate.
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:23 PM UTC
A good technique I saw a few years back, which might suit what you need, was to mold your own buildings using a piece of glass and some balsa wood. Basically build a frame of the front of a building from balsa wood and stick it on a piece of glass, make window and door sections so you are left with a basic mold to pour your plaster into. Once the plaster is dry you should be able to break away the balsa wood from the sides and pull out the window/door inserts. The plaster slab should also slide off the glass with ease (hence using the glass in the first place)
Once you have the building slab, you can do almost anything with it, scribe bricks onto it and other details and of course smash it up so you have bits of building rubble to go with your miniart ruin. Hope this helps.
'As all else failed we raised our fists and weapons,
Not born as soldiers, but driven to the end'
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Ive tried doing this also Damian but it didnt turn out very good.
I eventualy went to my local art supply store and bought a tub of brush on latex rubber and made my own moulds varying from building ruins to road wheels and am now about to commence (attempt) tank hulls !
Why not try scratcbuilding rather than ripping-off other people's work?
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 113 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:34 PM UTC
[quote]A good technique I saw a few years back, which might suit what you need, was to mold your own buildings using a piece of glass and some balsa wood[quote]
Thats a good technique, i may try this. Thanks Rob.
I assume a large glossy bathroom tile would do the trick inplace of the piece of glass?
Cheers Damian
Current Projects:
Tamiya - Marder III 1/48
Academy - P-38J 1/48 (On-Hold)
#130
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: June 07, 2002
KitMaker: 8,797 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:44 PM UTC
Ola Damian
I would suggest making your own molds... It is really easy to do.. The technique that Rob suggests works perfectly... I use it a lot myself and you can completely customize your building. You can even play with levels inside your molds so you can make a broader foundation and such.
And I usually design my mold in such a way that the sides and such match the angles of the base I'm using. A lot more work but it looks neater.
A glossy bathroomtile would work just as well as glass. I myself use big sheets of coated styrene for it
Greetz Robert "FAUST" Blokker
"Wees niet onverstandig, haastig of voortvarend; alles sal regkom, as ons almal ons plig doen".
FUTBOL KAVGADIR!!!!!!!
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 10:52 PM UTC
I've also found kitchen foil works well. It has the advantage that you can peel it off...
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 11:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
im also curious to attempt the lego block method. Creating a generic building structure, pouring the plaster in and breaking it apart.
G'day Damian,
Real easy mate, check out this article - it's used to make a road, but you can use the technique for any wall or such structure:
Basemaking for Beginners: Urban Road by: Engin Kayral I'm pretty surprised none of the posters above referred you to this article
Rudi
Beware the populist demagogues at the head of private armies
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 09, 2005
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Posted: Monday, April 12, 2010 - 11:58 PM UTC
Thats a useful article as well Rudi, similar to the technique I was trying to describe. making buildings isnt all that hard when it comes down to it, plaster is a very easy product to work with and can easily be scribed and damaged just like real masonry.
'As all else failed we raised our fists and weapons,
Not born as soldiers, but driven to the end'
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 12:10 AM UTC
Hi
Here is another article that although based on a 1/16th figure is still relevant for technique etc. It's by Frank Glackin, callsign Plasticbattle, and was one of the first articles I read and enjoyed when getting back into modelliing. Good on ya Frank.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/640&page=1 Alan
#001
California, United States
Joined: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 03:18 AM UTC
If this is just a 'one off ' so you can make rubble why don't you just press the piece into some modeling clay (dust it with talcum powder first) remove the kit part and then pour the plaster into the clay mold?
It isn't, or it doesn't seem like, you need a exact, perfect copy since you are using it to break apart and make debris.
I'm sure that this technique would give you what you need without the expense of materials for latex molds etc.
C.
North Carolina, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 916 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 03:45 AM UTC
Hey Damian,
I did something similar to what your describing (but I used the old Tamiya Brick Wall not a Mini-Art Building).
I used pieces of gypsum wall board (plasterboard) and scribed the patterns into the surface. It was easy to use and inexpensive (I got several small pieces of wall board from a local home improvement store for free - from damaged stock). If you mess up when scribing you break up the piece for rubble.
Here’s a link if your interested:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/118759#978274 By the Way - Using the Mini-Art Building as a mold to make some additional rubble around the building is a non-issue for the follow reasons:
1. You own the product and have the right to use it (you did’nt steal it right? LOL).
2. You are going to modify the copy you make (by smashing it up to make debris) so you have changed the product by more than 50% making it now your design.
3. You have disclosed the source (Mini-Art) and are not claiming the product to be your work.
4. Your not intending to sell / profit from this work, it’s for your own use, so your not taking income from the original owner.
Good Luck and post some pic's when you get to work.
TJ
Old Chinese Proverb:
The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step…
Old Modelers Proverb:
The building of a thousand kits begins with the first sprue…
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 04:41 AM UTC
The policy of this Site is clear. We DON'T advocate copying commercial products, we support manufacturers in their fight against piracy.
. [/quote]
Which is one of the great things about this site. I am a photographer and a writer. When someone just "makes themselves a copy" of my work they are stealing my work, and the money with which I support myself. Want to make a copy of something that I have done? Ask me, and I will sell or give you the right to do it. Many people seem to think that they aren't hurting me when they copy my work without paying for it. Believe me, you are, I price my work based on the perhaps foolish idea that folks will respect the time and effort that I put into it enough to give me what it is worth.
John
