well guys, I have seen OOB, AMS hardcore, and completely scratchbuilt kits...and the only really defining qulaity among them is how well they are painted. I have seen OOB kits that are small, like Tamiya's M5 Stuart, that have looked far better and overshadowed a converted E-100 with the Twin Flak gun. The E-100 was nicely built but poorly painted.

It is the painting, the "telent" part of it all, that really makes the difference...not to take away from the "bolt-counters" or stress on proper building, but again, I have seen WELL built models with poor paint jobs...and that is a crying shame...horrible, oh the humanity.

ok guys,

As i see a little missunderstanding appears

I'm NOT against the aftermarket sets. Even i buy sometimes (as much as my economical situation allows) but..
My question was :
Why do we have to buy these to CORRECT (because somebody says that they are innacurate), these model producer companies' mistakes. There are difference between.

For exemple: my dml 9010 !? ok right after that dml 9010x came... or
Somebody produces something, after 6 months they say
"Ooops..this one now, is "updated"
And in this case, what do we do ? Trying to add correct pieces and change with others.

That was my problem :-) And that's why i've been
Why do we have to do this continously.. (for SOME companies) ?

For exemple, how many Nashorns do u know ? Or Hummels ?

I believe if we continue like this we dont built anything and just wait for a 100% accurate model, for years :-)

And that's why i added, i will built OOB now and then. Since i built these for myself not for show off, as u say.

Happy and accuratelike modellings to all

I think I will add my thoughts here. I am not a rivet counter, and I am totally behind the thought that a great model is 60% painting and 40% building. Nevertheless, I find it's hard to not to use AM stuffs now, because I enjoy working with AM stuff, and as someone had mentioned, mold on tool holders, just not my thing. And, if I have no knowledge of an model subject, then I will just follow the instruction. however, if I do know there is something inaccurate of the model, and it's within my skill and fund, I will correct it, after all it's where the fun is, is it not?

If your happy with the way your kit's come out,thats all that matters.

well said!

M113 - I hope you build your model and have fun doing it. That's all that is important. Do whatever you want and damn trying to please anyone else else - rivet counter or casual modeler.

The only "right" way to model a kit is "the way you decide to do it". Period.

Gunnie

I'm with the rest of the guys. Just have fun. In my opinion, there are so many Sherman variations that I don't try to keep track of them. I just look at how the kit was built, detailed and painted. I don't give a thought to accuracy.

But doesn't wanting, or striving, for accuracy ultimately make the model companies produce better kits? Doesn't aftermarket help keep the hobby industry going by promoting new research and giving the modeller more choices in what they would like to accomplish? (Hey, it even buys new clothes for the people who make it and sell it.)

Now, I also agree with the 'have fun' attitutde, BUT once someone has been in the hobby a bit and becomes familiar with the basic skills I think there's a natural tendency to want to go to that next level. That's a human characteristic really.

Look, I think it's far more important to learn to use an airbrush than it is to spend $100's on aftermarket accessories before you know how to paint. And if you don't have the basic skills all these points are moot anyway.

I've seen people put so much work into a kit with resin and PE and then not want to paint it when it was completed because it would hide all their hard work! What's that about?

Yes guys, u all are right.

Once upon a time, i ordered an interior set for "Marder III" of Tamiya.
Nobody haas seen it I've added that, painted,weathered and hehe done !
Cos, when u close the upper part of Marder III not much thing can be seen.
I'm not against this..
Until now, i always did OOB kits, and sometimes i added AM sets.

The only one thing made me mad, it's to hear "Noo..dont do it..it's not accurate !"
And this wasn't the first time, these guys (frineds of mine) told that.

It may be because ıf the heat and the humidity :-) I just wanted to share with u.

Off course i will keep on doing models for my own pleasure, and share the pics with u,
and u'll see more thousands of models, if God allows me to live another 45 years

Happy modellings
I'm turning back to my OOB's :-)

Unfortunately, this desire is often lumped into characterizations of "rivet counting" by those who cannot or decide not to pursue that aspect of the hobby. The "rivet counting" does drive the impetus to produce better detailed and more accurate model kits. Aftermarket industry is founded to satisify that desire. Simply put - if you don't care about the contours of a hull, how many rivets hold a panel onto a frame, or how many bolts there are on a wheel hub - there is no need for aftermarket parts nor model companies to send representatives all over the place seeking full-sized examples of subjects to produce miniatures of. Model kit manufactures all try to improve their product because the modelers do want more accuracy and details. They (model kit companies) don't give a whit about how lofty some guys think their skills are, nor how many books they've crammed in their workspace. No one can please everyone all of the time - looking at the larger picture - I think they do a pretty good job of supplying what most are seeking. It's always up to the individual to take it to the next level - and it's not incumbent on the model kit companies to take you there.

Naturally - in my humble opinion...

Gunnie

It's all about personal choice really. I'm with the 'representative model' gang. I like the model to be as accurate as possible in outline and basic detail straight out of the box, and then add paint, stowage etc to make a particular vehicle. I don't expect to have to pay out more than the value of the basic kit to make it accurate in these basic requirements.

Time to weigh in here with a few thoughts.

We're in this to have fun first and foremost. If that means absolutely OOB, that's fine, if that means AMS superdetailing, that's fine, too.

In nearly 20 years of judging, including several stints as a head judge, I have never heard a judge worth his salt disqualify something for being strictly OOB nor have I heard one disqualify something for not having made corrections to the basic kit. I have seen well done OOB kits take place awards, and superdetailed models with construction flaws (misallignment, seams, ejector pin marks) and painting (orange peel, brush strokes) or decalling (silvering, poorly placed, etc.) errors fail to get a podium place.

Every judges' meeting I've been to emphasized one thing first and foremost: check the basics first. Contruction, alignment, paint (quality over accuracy) and decalling. When I've gone through my preliminaries, what I've looked at were those things. I honestly don't know enough about any vehicle to be able to say if this or that is a wrong shape or color. What I can say is that a barrel still has a seam or it has been sanded off round while the one next to it has no seam and is still round. Using that, if two tanks were equal in all respects and one had an after market barrel and the other a two part plastic kit barrel that was seamless and round, I'd go with the higher place to the plastic. Now if the plastic had a seam, the metal barrel wins.

When I've critiqued models here, I have focussed on these areas.

Stepping down from the soapbox, now.

Thanks, Al. You said much better what I was trying to say.

Excuse me, but I've lost count of my rivets. 1 .... 2.... 3.... 4....

One more thing. Yes, a hobby should be 'fun' but how about challenging too? If I want 'fun' I'll play a video game or watch a movie.

I think of model building more like a sort of craft/artform. Sometimes you get frustrated when things are difficult or new. That's a natural part of learning. But, if you love it you get through that and move on to the next step.

Once I get good at something I'm ready to experiment or try something new. It's the problem solving that I like. That's the 'fun' for me.

I want every model to be an evolution of the last. I want to do something new on each one!

I understand what you're saying and agree; however, sometimes these folks become the elitist "joy suckers" who look down their noses at OOB builders and other non-accurizing builders (hey, I don't care if I build a Tiger with a symmetrical turret).

You'll know them, they are the ones who say, "You built the Italeri Tiger? Don't you know you should have bought the Tamiya Tiger for the turret and used the Academy hull, then added Royal Models road wheels, Fruil tracks, Cavalier zimmerit, Aber PE, Karaya tow cables, Third Group decals, DML tank crew, Hornet heads, Grandt Line rivets, Verlinden scale toilet paper, and Martian moon dust pastels. Then scratchbuild the missing relief tube, move the escape hatch 2mm to the right and counter-rotate the cupola 5° in order to build the most accurate variant of the actual vehicle depicted on the Italeri box top."

Exxxacctlyyyyyy...that was i was trying to explain , Rob !
May be i couldnt find the right words.

Always luved ya ! :-)

Hey - I've read GREAT reviews on those Martian moon dust pastels.... where can I get some? (kidding)

Rob, I totally understand what you are saying - however I don't think that most people who decide to go ape on a model are doing it to impress others.... I think that most do it for a sense of satisfaction. The satisfaction I get out of a project is directly related to the amount of work I put in. Of course, this is just me - having fun and being satisfied with the end result is all that is important here.

I know there are those that think their ability to find flaw with various kits impresses others. You know - the I'm smarter than you, because I know that the blinker fluid filler port on a T-34 was actually square, not round as depicted by the kit. Comments like, 'The Academy M-15 Whatsamadinger is really a good kit..... it's a shame that the carborator belts are 0.24 mm too long and the Hoozlflapper is at the wrong angle. How could they miss things so obvious!"

These comments imply that EVERYBODY that built the kit w/out addressing these issues is some sort of moron. It gives them a smug sense of satisfaction - a superiority if you will. I really don't like that - but I do listen. I now have the ability to decide if these things are worth fixing - so I'm glad they do it. I just wish they could be more tactfull about these complaints.
Jeff

This kits are OOB, Tamiya M4, Italeri M4A1 and Italeri Jagdpanther Late, they don´t have a single aftermarket part.
I like the way they look and I don´t put extra $ in them.

Going back to the original post. Yes, I get a bit irritated when the model companies produce a kit with major errors. Especially if I find out about the problems after I purchase the kit.

I believe this is due to sloppy research on the part of the model companies or the lack of data on some AFV's. How many Pz1 AusF. F's are out there to measure?

However, there is a great amount of data and surviving examples of the most common AFV's out there that they can take a tape measure to.

As to building OOTB, I'm not a super detailer and if it looks like a Pz1V AusF. E or G or H, I'm happy and satisfied. I'll add the odd barrel, engine screen, or some simple scratch built parts.

The two Shermans look great. If I were judging them, from the pics, I really couldn't find any basic flaws and they'd make the first cut. at least, and be serious contenders minimally for OOB award. I'm guessing the Jagpanther pic has some issues with the colors, eveything looks a little too bright. But basic construction from the one shot looks great. It, too, would be a contender for an OOB award.

From a constructive comment point of view, I'd have to ask how the spare wheel is staying on the glacis plate of the Italeri Sherman. A piece of sheet stock or strip plastic in front of that would eliminate that question.

That said, you've done yeoman service in eliminating any seams in the barrels and have really nice finishes on all three kits. The weathering is convincing, the whitewash nicely worn, great effort on the ambush pattern (a favorite of mine). Just very well done kits. Thanks for sharing them. :-)

Hi Gang!
I agree "If it's fun, It's fun! If it's not, It's NOT!!!
But right now I find myself stuck, unable to finish a model I've been working on for over a YEAR. Not exactly the same problem, but it's a variation of Rivet Counter's Syndrome. I'm unsure of the location of a interior ammo rack that probably will never be seen. How's that for "Brain Cramps"?
I'm afraid to close-up the hull, ending my chance to "get it right" but if I don't get on it soon I'll end up not modelling much at all! I suppose I should just take a guess and get on with it.
This whole scratchbuilding/ conversion project is an wild ride in which I found out the extent of some of my skills, not the depth of my pockets. And THAT'S what I'm most proud of. If I can get it finished, it may or may not make it to a single contest. But it WILL be donated to the USMC Headquarters Museum.
Alot of Rivet-Counting people do seem to suck the fun out of modeling for people who have fun modeling. Sometimes their opinion is asked for, but mostly it's NOT! If someone asks my advice I'm more than glad to give it, unsolicited advice seems alot like an insult to me.
Now I'm logging off and turning on the lights in the workshop. (Don't trip on my soapbox!)
Chuck
(6)

I think you did a bang up job on those tanks. I only wish I could do the winter whitewash like you did. Got the same comment on the idler wheel, but hey, looks great any way.

Thanks AJLaFleche and Sabot. You´re wright, there´s a gap there with the idler wheel. I´ll put a piece of plasticard to give suport. The brigthness in the Jagdpanther Pic is a photo defect. The thing that I always try to do is to make a clean and properly aligned build and take a lot of care trying to eliminate the seams and sink marks, then try to use the proper technique and be careful with the painting-weathering-decaling-finishing proces. I´m happy with my kits and love this hobby. I think that this is the core of the thing, GET FUN WITH IT AND ENJOY YOUR WORK.

as i told a friend along time ago when building radio controled scale ship models..sitting in the middle of a pond they look beautiful and they're built for me to run and enjoy..thats all that matters.."hey ..it's a my boat..notta u boat"...lol..just my two cents
thanks Ray