Hi guys,

Few days ago, a friend of mine sent me an "M4A3 (76w) hvss" of Dragon.
As soon as i opened the box with a big pleasure, accuracy complaints started (from other friends that i told).
The question is : "Aren't you tired of these accuracy problems ?"
Won't we buy and do any models of any producers without some aftermarket sets.
Tracks, barrels, hulls, turrets,etc..etc.. !?
That makes me sick !
I just wondered what do you think about this !?
And what if the front light is 0.001 mm smaller than the real one ? Or...
what if the angle of turret is 0,00 something mm curved than the real one (especially as they say for some real good "Tiger I"s !?
Tamiya's #35216 for exemple.

Thanx for any kind of comments.

M113

I agree totally. I don't worry about the accuracy very much. As long as my decals are correct for what I am trying to portray.. the hell with buying aftermarket stuff. Gets too expensive and I find I can just enjoy the kit from the box.

HastyP

I build for my enjoyment, plain and simple.. Its great to see the fantastic work that is showen here. Ive even tried a bunch of stuff too... But as long as Im happy with the kit, thats all that matters.

Dave

Yeah I am by no means a "Rivet-Counter" and sometimes I don't even care if the model is
"Historically-Accurate"...I'll do research on the subject I'm building, and then just add a little bit of the more interesting aspects to the model I'm building (Stowage, damage, field-mods, etc.) If it floats my boat that's all I care! (feel free to )

Yeah I know, you may not belive this...

I prefer to build OOB and make small improvements as I think a model needs to "sit" right. An example, the DML T-72M2 I am working on right now. it is OOB except the figure needed some help. I did normal stuff, like reaming the barrels, etc...but nothing else...and I LIKE it. But I also just got a Eastern Express BT-7A witht he Fruil tracks and the Jordio Rubio barrel and I am thinking of getting the Eduard PE. Because it will help improve the look of the kit...

Now I know the DML T-72 turret is wrong by measurement, but it LOOKS right built...and that is ok with me. But I am not about to shell out $30 for the new Tamiya Hummer just because it has accurate measurements...the Academy kits have always "looked" good to me.

Does this make any sense? (I have just gotten done painting in the basement!)

Agree. I'm pretty much an OOTB builder, a "representative" modeller. If the kit is "representative" of the real deal, fine by me.

I don't get hung up on trivia like if the hugivzaschittz has the incorrect bolts or bolt pattern.

I'll drill out barrels and twist wire for tow cables, and I did try PE once - PITA.
And I did spring for turned barrels for my 3 Shermies - got 'em on sale at a hobby show.
Haven't done resin doo-dads yet, I know how to make my own tarps out of tissue.

OTOH, I can understand some resin add-ons, it is a time saver for those with more money than time.

OK 113 just ask yourself ,"Am I happy with the end result?" :-)

If you are then who cares if you put a 120mm on a sherman?

That and remember you buy your models not them.

Stephen Magee

Unless you are entering contests run by rivit counters I wouldn't worry at all about the kit! I find it is pretty close and looks good when done!
My 2 Cents
Jeff Larkin

m113,
I agree on another forum I seen people ripping apart the acadamy grant tank!
now one one as even seen this kit and were just making a wild guess about
what they'd seen with the honey kit I found the thread very anoying and thought
It was people just exersizing their ego's. I agree I build mostly ootb unless its a gun
barrel or a set of deck screens. as long as it looks like what it's supposed to be who
cares you build for you no one else and just remember that most of these rivet
counters dont actually build very much!. I'd thather it was a few mils out than not
have the kit at all and I'm not going to chop up a £20+ kit for the sake of a few mils
only to find out that I've wasted a kit in doing so. I tend to think that sizing a kit against a
real tank then slagging it off for being mil short/long is a very sad and dull way to carry
out this hobby

At last ..... mature modellers!!
I have to agree ......... please yourself and after that .... its your hobby. Everybody has their own taste and preferences and I respect that .......so if add-ons is your game thats OK too.

But the one thing that annoys me slightly, is adding on just to impress. I have seen build ups where guys have listed no less than 10 different aftermarket addons ... tracks, barrells, PE, decals, turret, interior, correct exhaust, figures, etc, etc, and in my opinion have turned out what I think, is a very average model. On the other hand I have seen a basic kit built from the box, and I stare and stare in admireation at it. To me, thats what modelling is about, not putting together an expensive jig-saw of parts. This is not a rule as there people who can pull it off ... ie; Twig to name just one...... have you seen this tiger????
I really enjoy what i do ... whether its good or bad, right or wrong. I spent the last 4 months trying to finish up old models that I had started in the hope I could practice different techniques and improve on what I can do today. This was a good experience as I was working on kits I started maybe 18 months ago and was easily able to see things I can do better now. They are finished, not perfect but I like them anyway. Im proud to have them and feel like Ive achieved something.
As far as rivet counting goes ...... I couldnt give a toss. If it looks good to me, then it is good.

I agree with what you guys have said BUT, with todays easy way of getting info and measurements and todays refined casting tools I'm sometimes stunned by the mistakes made by the model companies.
Take the Trumpeter Strv 103 for example.
They made not one but two versions of this tank and for that I'm very happy but how hard can it be for them to get the measurements right?
Now we ended up with a kit thats underscaled by about 10mm in lenght.
I admit that it looks like an Strv 103 when you look at it but it would have been more fun if they had made it the right size.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not a rivet counter but I think sometimes the model companies are a bit sloppy, they can with a little effort avoid such errors.

/Thord

The same armor model by DML (M4A3 Sherman HVSS) was the third one I made since I went back to modeling 3 years ago (after a 10-year hiatus). I can say that completing it (esp. the cleaning part) was really an arduous job. And I just built it straight OOB with a little detail here & there. There was no need for any aftermarket details because as it is, it was a very nice kit. But i liked the outcome of the finished work. It sits right even as an OOB model. I definitely agree with everyone's comments. I build models for the mere pleasure of it...for my own satisfaction. If you think your finished model is accurate enough, and your pretty satisfied with the outcome, then it is alright.

Thank you very much guys :-)
It's good to know that i'm not alone !
And u cannot magine how many models i gave to other people, thinking of (or after read the critics) that they weren't accurate
I'm always with decorating it, like adding stowages boxes chains etc..but speaking of accuracy and to feel sorry after mounting it...was really terrible.

Wow..it was like a good therapy, guys :-) Thank you all again.
Now i'm going to make my "inncaurate" DML #9010 :-)

I think it’s whatever the audience is looking for, but more importantly, what the creator is looking for. Personally, I don't look at a model and say "well, that barrel is too small”, or “that angle is just way off". I’m not that big of an expert on all this stuff anyway, not as big as most of you are at least. Unless it's a major mistake I don't care. I don't judge a modeler based on his attention to making it look like the real thing, but rather the story he tells through the model. Models are meant to tell a story. If it's got some dents, some rust, a place where someone gave it a name it's good enough for me. As long as they make you think "wow, I wonder what made that dent", "I wonder who Nancy is?”, or “it must have went through some big mud puddles” I think the creator did a great job. The accuracy to detail to the real thing doesn't matter to me. It's a model, and usually a 1/35th scaled model at that. You're never going to get in all the details of the original anyway, so why worry? Just because a person doesn't have the money to shell out for more accurate pieces, or want to bother when there are other models to be built, does that make him a bad modeler? As long as they try to tell a story in their piece, I think they did a good job making it.

If you want to build it out of the box, that's fine. Enjoy. As has often been said, build to make yourself happy.

That said, I think it's important to realize that many of us get our happiness from correcting inacuracies and replicating history in miniature. We get a kick out of researching a subject, learning its history and understanding how and why its technology works. I personally cannot build OOTB, no matter how hard I try. There is always something I feel I can improve, replace or fix, I'll do it.

Call me a rivet counter if you wish -- I consider it a compliment. I decided a long time ago that merely assembling a kit was not enough, and that's when I started modeling. It's up to the individual to decide where the line is...

As for the DML M4A3 with HVSS, OOTB it does not look right to me. I don't know what your friends told you about this kit, M113, but none of the corrections are very difficult to fix. The most noticible problem is the gun barrel -- it is too short, and I'm not talking a millimeter or two; it's about a centimeter too short. Also, in some of the earlier issues of this kit the gun mantle has the lift lugs on the wrong side and the instructions have you place it upside down (this was fixed in later issues of the kit -- hopefully you have a later issue kit). Again, if none of this bothers you, don't worry about it.

Mikeli125: I agree that people should not be ripping on a kit that has not even been issued yet. I just ignore the speculators and I'll wait to see it for myself. All I can say is that I'm certain the Academy M3 Grant/Lee kits will be better than the old Tamiya offerings.

I totaly agree with you M113. I don´t mind very much if my model has those accuracy problems that you mention. I build my kits OOB, I´m in the hobby for pleasure not to get mad whith measures and little details. I only take care with the colours, camos and decals.
Enough is for me to arrive to a well builded and nice looking kit.

Ok Bob (Hollowpoint ).
I guess this has to be the shame of Dragon not mine huh ?
Do i have to correct always their mistakes ? Do i have to spend extra money for any kinda corrections of any producers ? Heheh..i'll be retired within 1 month Bob, and i ain't so reach at all That's what i mean.
All i can do is to put away PzIV H and get PzIV J (of tamiya) cos this last one comes already zimmerited.
Or..ok..if u have seen my "M4A1" ıtaleri, i corrected the tracks, the antenna and the machine gun (cos i had spare of these) but i'm still sorry for the barrel :-)

Besides..how do u think these producers companies will earn money ? If they dont make some little mistakes :-)

And secondly : Don't u think this accuracy problems will make think a bit the rookies who wants to start this hobby !? And as some others say, how they may be expert on every models in the market ?

In deed, after all of these comments, this barrel thing makes me think also (which is about 1 cm short ) #:-)

But one day i will do this model as it is, OOB ! I'm sure of it.

Thanx all again !

I would say my biggest pet peeve is when you build an older kit like an Esci T-55 that has a lot of problems with it and then you compair it to something that has recently come out like the Tamiya T-55 which is pretty much dead on. Thats only time that accuracy bothers me to a point.

I vary how I build models....sometimes I like to just slap them together without too much consern for fixing the little problems with them like the Trumpter S-Tank or some times I like to get really anal with a project like my T-55 Engima I did. I build to my tastes, though sometimes I will put forth more effort into a kit if I'm going to take it AMPS or something.

As I've gotten back into the hobby 4 years ago, I found AMS setting in. Friul tracks, aftermarket barrels, Eduard PE, etc.
Recently I purchased a number of aftermarket parts for the Tamiya Panther G (late). I also bought a second Panther G (late) off Ebay.
My idead is to build both Panther Gs, one with all aftermarket parts, the other right out of the box. Paint them in the same camo scheme and compare the two.
I'm interested to see the difference between the two.

Peter

Just my small token here. I am basically an OOB builder, even though sometimes I put some extra bits here and there, but that is just because I feel the look will improve. Also, I am not building to show off to anybody, I am building for myself, same as most of use here. Of course, I would enjoy (building and looking at) a fully loaded kit, with all that extra stuff that you could find, but that will probably happen many years from now. Of course, I wouldn't want to deal with really bad kits, like the Boeing 747 from Revell, which doesn't come with clear plastic for the passeneger windows, the two halfes of the aircraft body have a horrible warp etc. No, these kits are really bad and this is when accuracy and craftmanship really counts. So what if Italeri kits are not up to Tamiya's standards? As long as we enjoy what we make, I say we are on the right track and we should be proud of what are we doing.

Sphyrna said



I would also be really interested in seeing these side by side. I started back in this hobby just over a year ago ( the last model I built before resuming was a Tamiya Panzer II, and Nixon was still president. I have another copy of the same kit in my stash now, btw) and build whatever I please, however I please. I've probably spent as much time redoing my work areas as I have abusing plastic, but it makes me happy. To sum this or any other pursuit, "If it ain't fun, who the @#$ needs it?"

Hi,
my two cents: I do not like expensive aftermarket kits, mainly because they're expensive. What I really do is improve the kits with parts and pieces made from scratch. I really like the satisfaction it gives me to see that I actually can do things better even without spending my whole budget on a few PE or white metal parts. However that's not a "must" sometimes I add parts on a kit and don't do the same on the next, just because my focus is on another part of the kit or dio that I build around it. I am a very slow modeler, so I ended up with a kit lasting almost a year with all those imrovements. I did not go that far ever since #:-).
All in all, just do what you want, learn from other modelers' experience but don't try to copy anyone.
I see our hobby more as an art than a craft, so find your own style .
cheers - Andreas -

I'm with hollowpoint on this one. I suppose you could call me a rivet counter as well.....

That being said, I don't go out of my way to look for things to "fix" on a kit. I can live with minor dimensional errors - as long as they are MINOR and I don't know about them. I have an impossible time letting errors that I am aware of slide. It just bugs me.

That doesn't mean that I'm some sort of snooty boor either. I build most of my allied stuff out of the box (by this I mean no etch stuff, aftermarket barrels, etc.), because frankly I don't know enough about Shermans to know what is "right" or "wrong" with the kit. I mainly fix stuff like grab handles, stretched sprue antennas, etc. I'm very satisfied with most of the Shermans I've done.

German stuff is another story - I just can't KNOWINGLY build something without at least TRYING to correct the errors that I am aware of. Molded on tool brackets just bother me - I don't know why, but they do. I guess you could say I MUST use aftermarket screens as well. I think they add enough to the final look to be worth the cost - that is just a personal judgement. I really like the sense of satisfaction I get when I finally get one of these babys done. Like hollopoint implied - half the fun for me is "research and development".

Later-
Jeff

Here is my 2 cents on the this subject. First of all I'm not going to knock anybody for building either OOB or with every AM piece they can squeeze on. I have only built OOB so far mainly because I'm CHEAP. Part of me is very impressed with a kit that has really been done up right with AM. On the other hand I love it when somebody builds a OOB kits and blows everybody away with how good it looks. I suppose the longer you stay in the hobby the more likely that you're going to want to start making your model look as real as possible which means becoming a rivet counter to some degree. I just hate seeing people just starting out thinking they have to have EVERY AM option that is out there.

Ok, now for MY pet peave. People who just insist on having EVERY AM item there is, and who critisize those who don't and who never BUILD anything.

Well, I sometimes think the criticism of the 'rivet counters' helps our hobby. I'm all for model companies doing their homework and producing accurate kits.

Look at the old Tamiya stuff and much of it was garbage. More like kids toys than scale models of real world vehicles.

And, if I spend $30 + for a small Humvee model, I want it to be really good without major surgery. Really, you can get PE sets for around $15, half the price of the kit itself. I don't think this is unreasonable for the level of realism you can get with some extra work.

Aftermarket tracks: I always think Fruil or Kasten tracks can make a model look almost life-like. Yes, it may be added cost but to some it's worth it.

If people want to build OOB fine. But, as people become more involved and get better at the hobby, I think there's a natural tendency to try and go beyond what came in the box. If that means scratch building or aftermarket, great. We are in a golden age where you can get detailed info on just about any vehicle imaginable. Certainly that's going to be reflected in how people are building.

Me, I don't do major corrections but will use PE, scratch bits, aftermarket tracks, etc. Most important is the final 'look' and 'feel' of the model. Something with bad paint and weathering doesn't do it for me even if there's 1,000's of hours of scratch building put into the kit. It has to be a nice balance.

Then again, I don't sit there with a flashlight and scrutinize every little aspect of a model like I see judges do. I mean, it's only a model!

Steve