Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
Hosted by Darren Baker
M113 build
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 05:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hopefully I get the photos right this time.

I have started some figures (a mix of Legend, Dragon, Academy and Verlinden bits and bobs). Still trying to get used to painting little figures (using Vallejo acrylics). I need to learn to blend a little better too. I have tried to vary the colours of the uniforms and they really are just a mix by eye. Struggling quite a bit with the faces.

I have also worked a little more on the interior of the M113.

Appreciate your comments.









just a note: Your one of the few that actually get the figures right! Unbloused boots were the norm unless you headed into the land of leeches. Everybody had sunglasses due to the intense sunlight. I did notice that the boots looked close, but the leather part is a dull black that will be really skuffed up. The skuffed up parts (about 70% of the leather) will be a buff color. Put a 25 round belt on that M60! And wrap a couple belts around the infantry guys supporting the track on foot. Once again you did well, and your work fits the part better than 85% of the stuff I've seen!
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 05:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here are some more progress pics of the interior.

I am going to close it up and would like some comments before I do. Any suggestions/improvements will be welcome.

I have tried to age the various bits and pieces in different degrees. I didn't want to bash all the packaging boxes up too much, just a couple of scuffs and stains here and there. I also didn't want to obscure everything, so tried to place it informally, but also make allowances for actual conditions?









only one comment! Back by the door you need at least a dozen cans of fifty cal ammo! and the same in 7.62 and 5.56. You also want at least two cans of fifty cal and 7.62 ontop the track when it ready to roll out. Many units often would carry a half dozen cans of 5.56 ontop to be handed over the side when things got bad. Never enough ammo on hand
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 05:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Nick,
I have to say that is an amazing paint job there, my boy. And I love all the wiring you've done inside. 10 out of 10!!
The stash is great also but just a couple of things mate.
Usually, M113's would have a layer of sand bags or ammo cans layed across the deck to help defend against mine blast but if you did that you wouldn't be able to see that superb paint job, I suppose.
Also, that green "metal" rectangular box with the rounded ends at the back of the model is from the Verlinden set, right? Well, it is supposed to represent a Mermite can which is a hot/cold food container. The troops often filled these up with ice &/or put drinks cans (cokes/buds) inside to keep them cold. Well, the Verlinden effort is inaccurate, I'm afraid. The one you have behind it up against the left wall with the strap placed vertically around it is way better & highly accurate (plus model version?). I have a couple of these Mermite cans (the real thing) here at home & will send you some photos if you like-let me know. The outer skin was made of aluminium & painted OD & the paint easily chipped so you would see lots of aluminium under the paint-especially round the edges!
I hope all this helps, buddy. Brilliant work so far. I cant wait to see the next lot of photos!
Good luck.
Joe.



Joe's right on the money! Just go ahead and leave the straps off. Now what's really wrong here is that the can isn't full of Boddington's bitters! (I might have extended my tour if that had been over there). I might add that not all cans used straps. The ones we used actually had latches on the outside
gary
joegrafton
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 07:04 AM UTC
Hi Gary,
I didn't even know any of the mermite cans used straps. The two I have here have a couple of latches. I wonder if the one in the photo above has a retaining strap, mabye?
Joe.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 09:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Gary,
I didn't even know any of the mermite cans used straps. The two I have here have a couple of latches. I wonder if the one in the photo above has a retaining strap, mabye?
Joe.



I've seen a couple that had a nylon strap going over the top with a buckel. Like you said most all used latches. The Igloo water cans were common. Have seen them painted silver and also white.
gary
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 09:29 AM UTC
It is coming along well. I agree that you did well on the figures, with the exception of this guy:



As much as Hollywood and Oliver Stone want you to believe; the beard, long hair, and dope smoking were not the norm for soldiers in Vietnam. Soldiers were still disciplined and adhered to grooming standards; their First Sergeants would make sure of it.
Thehumantouch
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 08:36 PM UTC
Dear Joe and Gary

Thanks so much for both your replies. I like to get some feedback from those who know.

Joe

%$@ Verlinden - I just presumed (never presume) everything they did was accurate! Oh well...the other ones are from Legend
I did think of the sand bags (which were also used in this part of the world during our problems - even in civilian vehicles), but as you say, I was also trying to prevent hiding all the internal detail. A lot of M113's were loaded completely.
I thought the one can with the strap would be OK, to sort of indicate it tied back to one of the loading points.

Gary

I have still to do quite a bit of work on the figures and lots of little pieces are still missing (eg belt ammo). I hadn't really started on the boots yet. I know from being in the military here how varied uniforms, etc can become after time - especially with combat troops exposed to long periods in the field. Also there are always clowns and we had guys who would wear bits of captured/liberated uniforms - everybody also tried to personalise their own equipment. I don't make my own figures so rely on the castings of others, but did mix and match to try and give them a little uniqueness.
I did think about the ammo situation in the M113 and how to get to it quickly, but I used some licence because the boxes of provisions look more colourful. Not the way troops would load their vehicle, I know. Maybe I'll add a couple more cans.

Once again thanks for your valued input.


Thehumantouch
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 08:41 PM UTC
Hi Gino

You are 100% correct. I know in some forces with reserve units, the guys may be slightly bushy (not Vietnam). I just liked this head from Verlinden - bandana, beard, sunglasses (maybe I should alter him into a press photographer?) Add a camera (I'd have to make it), film cannisters and remove the grenades - what you think?
joegrafton
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Posted: Monday, June 28, 2010 - 08:44 PM UTC
No problem, Nick.
Always glad to help on such a great piece of work.
Joe.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 12:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Gino

You are 100% correct. I know in some forces with reserve units, the guys may be slightly bushy (not Vietnam). I just liked this head from Verlinden - bandana, beard, sunglasses (maybe I should alter him into a press photographer?) Add a camera (I'd have to make it), film cannisters and remove the grenades - what you think?



I think he would fit in perfect as a civilian photographer. Good idea.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 03:46 AM UTC
You could make him Dennis Hopper's crazy photographer character from "Apocalypse Now".

orange_3D
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 04:22 AM UTC
wow, just saw this and I must say it's a really nice build on the interior (and great photography too!)
keep going, can't wait to see more
joegrafton
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 04:29 AM UTC
Yeah!
Francis Ford Coppolas crazy photographer! What a character!
Now that would be a great figure from Bravo6, wouldn't it?
Vladimir, if you're watching...
Joe.
Mech_Inf
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 04:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Hendrik

I do get a lot of things via the internet using various suppliers - I also have family in the UK who bring things for me, when visiting, if I ask nicely. I find that using Hobby Easy or Lucky Model is pretty good because they can also pack things to reduce the duties here. Some items are also shipped free - their specials can also be attractive. Even paying duties and VAT is preferable to some of the prices charged locally although I do like to support them.

Nick



Thanks Nick. I also use Hobby Easy. Just thought there was a supplier in SA. These days I only buy paints locally.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 06:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dear Joe and Gary

Thanks so much for both your replies. I like to get some feedback from those who know.

Joe

%$@ Verlinden - I just presumed (never presume) everything they did was accurate! Oh well...the other ones are from Legend
I did think of the sand bags (which were also used in this part of the world during our problems - even in civilian vehicles), but as you say, I was also trying to prevent hiding all the internal detail. A lot of M113's were loaded completely.
I thought the one can with the strap would be OK, to sort of indicate it tied back to one of the loading points.

Gary

I have still to do quite a bit of work on the figures and lots of little pieces are still missing (eg belt ammo). I hadn't really started on the boots yet. I know from being in the military here how varied uniforms, etc can become after time - especially with combat troops exposed to long periods in the field. Also there are always clowns and we had guys who would wear bits of captured/liberated uniforms - everybody also tried to personalise their own equipment. I don't make my own figures so rely on the castings of others, but did mix and match to try and give them a little uniqueness.
I did think about the ammo situation in the M113 and how to get to it quickly, but I used some licence because the boxes of provisions look more colourful. Not the way troops would load their vehicle, I know. Maybe I'll add a couple more cans.

Once again thanks for your valued input.





first of all remember that NOBODY is dumb enough to sleep inside a track! I mean absolutely nobody with a higher than single digit IQ. When your inside the thing your in a death trap with no way out. With that being said you can pack the thing with just anything; including the kitchen sink. But the essentials alway end up being water, food and ammo. Food comes out daily; along with water. But the last thing want to run out of is ammo. The first thing you look for in a 60 second firefight is ammo, and it's also the last thing you look for.

So with the above in mind; you tend to off load everybody that's not squeezing a trigger at the first inkling that a new adventure is about to happen a hundred yards in front of you. Guys that walk tend to last longer that guys that are lazy and hitch a ride ontop a track (I learned this lesson the hard way via a flight thru a bamboo thicket at about 30 mph). When your the unlucky guy stuck with the hog, you aways have a 20 to 30 round belt hanging in it (don't forget the orange juice can). He should also have acouple belts wrapped around him like everybody else. Make the guys look like Mexican bandits, and you'll be just fine. One otherthing I noticed was the RTO. If your not shooting fold the aerial, and cover the radio in a plastic like bag (to keep the dust and mud out of it).

Gino commented about the guy's beard (I somehow missed that guy). He's right about the beard, but if they are out on a three or four day S&D it's common to see a day or two old beard. But when it's over you shaved! If for no other reason than to stay ahead of the ring worm. in Vietnam, a mustache was considered to be a "right of passage." His hair wasn't all that bad, but he was due for a hair cut. Brain turnicuts really were not a common sight just like doo rags. But a towl around the neck was very common. In the hot and dry season most guys stuck with tee shirts if they could get them (had my Mom send me black ones a couple times). If the track is in a rest position you'll see socks laying around after being washed (infections were a bad thing over there), and a lot of guys will have Ho Chi Mein sandles on to allow their bare feet to air out. You can also have white socks mixed in with the O.D. ones as the REMF's were the only ones that had plenty of socks. Once again it was Mom to the rescue.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 06:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Gino

You are 100% correct. I know in some forces with reserve units, the guys may be slightly bushy (not Vietnam). I just liked this head from Verlinden - bandana, beard, sunglasses (maybe I should alter him into a press photographer?) Add a camera (I'd have to make it), film cannisters and remove the grenades - what you think?



I think he would fit in perfect as a civilian photographer. Good idea.



Gino,
I know this is really gonna stir the pot, but I'm gonna be the one to do it!! What photograhers? It was not a very common sight to see the press out with an Army unit, and the folks involved didn't trust them. We had a couple show up, and they left on the next bird out cause nobody would speak to them (let alone allow their pictures taken). The Army did send out their folks a couple times, but they never hung around after the first mortar barrage. This is why most all photos you see of Army personell are taken by their own guys in that unit. There's a lot of truth to the way the press was greeted at the base of 927, and this greeting was common place
gary
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 06:42 AM UTC
Yeah, I know the reporters were'nt well liked nor respected and didn't hang around much. We'll just say this one is the one guy who got along with the troopers and did live with them in the field. I know there had to be a few that did.
Spetz01
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 07:52 AM UTC
Looks good ! I drove those alot before we (Canadian Army) switched to the TLAV. Somethings to think about.

1. The seat cusion for the driver is only held on by a bungee cord. It was not uncommon to duct tape the cusion to the metal seat. Silver, black, whatever, as long as it stayed there.

2. Rear engine access panel locking tabs - These opened very easily due to vibration. They freely swung around, rapidly wearing the paint down to bare metal in a circular fashion.

3. Haven't see the hull, but the heater exhaust on the top right (or left, been a few years) would get so hot that at night it would look like a butane torch, when it worked. This blackened the exhaust port alot. It is located next to or very close to the drainage hole for the submersion pump.

Excellent work !
RotorHead67
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 11:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nick
You need to put [/img] at the end of the links and they should work then. I have taken the liberty of doing your's for you.
David



Dave;
I wish I could get this posting skill locked down. The pics always are great, but I have BRAIN BLOCK when I try to post.
Thehumantouch
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 11:04 PM UTC
Hi Gino

I like the nutter from Apocolypse Now - great idea! This, to me, is theatre anyway. I am not trying to make an exact replica of a specific moment in time, merely a fairly accurate and sympathetic rendition of the situation. I would like to do an M48 tank in the Hue battles too at some point.

As far as I know, the claustrophobic conditions inside an M113 meant that everybody preferred sitting on top too (Israelis as well). I know from experience in this part of the world that RPG's can cause huge personel trauma inside a soft skin AFV, although the mine resistance of Ratels and Buffels is pretty good. Some of the drivers in Vietnam rigged up contraptions to control M113's from the outside on top of their hatch?????Saw a pic, not sure of the legitimacy though....

I have already put a case of 7.62 cans (.30 calibre?), a case of 5.56 cans, a further 10 loose 5.56 cans, two loose 7.62 cans, a case of .45 hand gun ammo and two grenade cases inside. I will add a few other loose cans that are more visible. There will also be liberable ammo available on the top once I get there - including belts, blooper rounds and more loose cans. Some pics I have seen show an incredible amount of 'stuff' packed onto and in these vehicles.

On a different note - the Sheridan I am building used 105mm ammo for the main gun. Is that the same as 105mm howitzer ammo? I have a Verlinden set for this and was going to use elements.

Thanks for the help - and to all the others who are asisting me, I value everybody's opinion very highly!

HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:45 AM UTC
Sounds good on the ammo.


Quoted Text

On a different note - the Sheridan I am building used 105mm ammo for the main gun. Is that the same as 105mm howitzer ammo?



Actually, the Sheridan used 152mm ammo which was shared with the M60A2 Starship. It could either fire a standard round or an AT missile out the tube. There are no ammo sets for it that I know of.
joegrafton
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:52 AM UTC
Hold your horses flyboy!
The M551 Sheridan had a 152mm main gun which fired anti tank guided missiles (which were not taken to Vietnam, I believe) & a multipurpose HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) round with a combustible case. The crews hated this ammo, apparently, as you can imagine the effects of combustible case ammo in the event of an RPG penetration!
I hope this helps, Nick.
Joe.
mmeier
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 01:21 AM UTC
As stated the M551 had a 152mm gun/launcher (M81) as used in the M60A2 and ammo-compatible to the system planned for the MBT70. It could fire

Shillelagh Infraret guided ATGM (not deployed to Vietnam(2))
A HEAT-T-MP round with combustible case(1)
The M625 Canister round with combustible case(1)

The Canister was the most useful and most often used round.

(1) The combustible case had numerous problems including swelling in damp air, not being fully combusted and being easily damaged.

(2) Actually most Vietnam M551 where lobotomized to the "2-box" configuration by removing the missile part of the firing electronics to reduce maintenance load


===========================================

Question: What are the round, silver "cans"? Until this threat I considered THEM to be the Mermite (or equivalent)

Does one have a picture than "names" all the cans/boxes in a typical gear pile?
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 04:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Gino

I like the nutter from Apocolypse Now - great idea! This, to me, is theatre anyway. I am not trying to make an exact replica of a specific moment in time, merely a fairly accurate and sympathetic rendition of the situation. I would like to do an M48 tank in the Hue battles too at some point.

As far as I know, the claustrophobic conditions inside an M113 meant that everybody preferred sitting on top too (Israelis as well). I know from experience in this part of the world that RPG's can cause huge personel trauma inside a soft skin AFV, although the mine resistance of Ratels and Buffels is pretty good. Some of the drivers in Vietnam rigged up contraptions to control M113's from the outside on top of their hatch?????Saw a pic, not sure of the legitimacy though....

I have already put a case of 7.62 cans (.30 calibre?), a case of 5.56 cans, a further 10 loose 5.56 cans, two loose 7.62 cans, a case of .45 hand gun ammo and two grenade cases inside. I will add a few other loose cans that are more visible. There will also be liberable ammo available on the top once I get there - including belts, blooper rounds and more loose cans. Some pics I have seen show an incredible amount of 'stuff' packed onto and in these vehicles.

On a different note - the Sheridan I am building used 105mm ammo for the main gun. Is that the same as 105mm howitzer ammo? I have a Verlinden set for this and was going to use elements.

Thanks for the help - and to all the others who are asisting me, I value everybody's opinion very highly!




a Sheridan shot a 152mm round that was very similar in design to a recoiless rifle round, yet still a little different. The only thing I ever saw a Sheridan shoot was HE and Canister, but the story went that they were doing (or going to do) a WP round. Still I never saw one.

Building a Sheridan can be interesting because of how they were often customized (second only to the M113). Some units used a generic rear rack on the turret that all of them used in that unit, and others looked like a tinker toy set. The ACAV style turret ontop the main turret was not used by everybody, so you need to keep that in mind. There was an "applique" piece of armor added to the front and bellys of them, but once again not every track had them. It was made of billet titanium if memory is right ($$$!). I have seen more than one Sheridan with a post welded to the top of the turret for a second M60 machine gun. I might add that one of these used a gun right off a Huey slick with the rear butterfly firing mechanism. So in the end be sure to use your imagination! Normally a Sheridan was the backup for the recon platoon, but was never the lead track on a search and destroy mission (usually the third or fourth). On contact the Sheridan would roll up near the front with a Can round bring the hydraulics upto pressure. Rarely were more than two rounds ever needed to get a handle on situation. The HE rounds were used mostly on bunker complexes.
gary