i have a bunch of paper panzers (e50, 75, 100, maus, panther f and ii, etc), and i am wondering, beyond the octopus, what colour schemes might be appropriate, or just interesting. thanks.

What about an Israeli E75 with an M60 powerpack, ERA, and the usual mod cons? That would be amusing.

Please try not and HIJACK interesting the topic.

By end War there would be quite a mixture of colours from the oxide primer to dark yellow, to what ever was still available to the factory crews who would build the last few Panzers. It could come down to whay you see fit.Panzers of many colours.

Anthony

I'm leaning to two tone dunkelgelb/panzergrau or three tone dunkelgelb/paznergrau/rotbraun A "classic" Dunkelgelg / rotbraun would be also interesting.

spit

Interesting thread. What I had in mind would be two-tone --shades of green and brown, or probably gray and brown.

How about the camo patterns -- would it be hard-edged wavy patterns, or striped / geometrical ones? or probably disc camo?

Cheers,

Tat

My 0.02:

It's "1946".

The options are wide, I should think. Partly you would have to consider what assumptions you are making going into this build and question: For instance- is your concept one of "the Germans have somehow managed to struggle on and prolong things in last desperation into '46"? IF this is the scenario- a what-if continuation of the war as if something crashed in the east-front advances or the west front stalled...

Then you would maybe be thinking a world of continued reductions in German supplies, more scraping-by, etc. And the paint schemes might be heavily in the "incomplete and hasty job" category- maybe lots of primer coats and bits of camo would be likely? Folks are using whatever old stocks are around.

Under some other scenarios which would posit more "rejuvenation" of Germany- maybe a putative cessation or pause in west-front and more defensive success back east- maybe a breather where industries bring on line more tech and get a chance to employ planned factory schemes, etc... You might be doing some version of those newer camo schemes and different colours which German teams were developing at war's end. Schemes might be better applied, though colours may well have been mostly "old stock".

I would guess that you could explore many possible routes- also remembering that vehicles would likely continue to have crew-applied "artwork" and local rear-shop painting laid over factory base-coats. That, and maybe some newer vehs would come from factories with new "designer" paint schemes.

I recently did an "E-10" (pic below) where I posited that the factory was tasked to use mostly the established tri-colours common on most 44 and 45 vehs, applied as a partial coat over the rotoxide. I envisioned an "OK" scheme and careful paint-job, but not too complex- meaning it could be pretty fast and not require a lot of painter finesse. "Octopus" and "ambush" schemes are more involved paint-jobs. Take more crew or factory time, and may take some actual scheme-planning before painting.

The Germans may well have moved on to other camo designs were the war to have continued- I have "always" thought that there might have been some more "urban" scheme development and even some sort of "pixillated" approach using greys or dark colours focused on defensive actions in cities. These are ideas common now - and recognize the reality that schemes may well have to fit more localized circumstances and must address current enemy detection and observation practices and abilities... Think on whether a tank should sport IR-damping schemes if used primarily as a night-fighting ambush vehicle... Maybe some of the "stratified" schemes long used by the Luftwaffe - barred tops with mottled and graded sides and counter-shading - would have been adapted for tanks?

Hope this adds something to your quest!

Here is my E-10 "ausf C" command/recon, summer 1946:

Bob, going by this route what would these schemes be? Surely most will say go any which way -- since its a What-if anyway, but I guess my question is what could be plausible (or a logical evolution?) given the second scenario you mentioned. Cheers -- Tat

Tat;

Yours is a difficult question to clearly and fully answer!

But... Some of the more-likely suspects would have been adaptations of some of the later-war clothing patterns. The color range could also have expanded beyond the traditional gelb-braun-grun assortment: clothing patterns in the "platanenmuster" (plane-tree pattern), "rauchtarnmuster" (smoke-blotch), "eichenlaubmuster" (oak-leaf), "erbsenmuster" (pea pattern) and "liebermuster" pattern series were all being experimented with on vehicles. The liebermuster series actually pioneered inclusion of IR flecking and tags- and has similarity to several post-war schemes in use right to present. The Germans also apparently considered versions of the older "splinter" pattern schemes- but done in "new" colours such as maroons and greys and black.

More than a few folks in various departments and in "academe" were interested in the development of camouflage. And we are all probably aware that the various services did not freely cross-pollinate- so luftwaffe versus heer versus waffen-SS resulted in differing patterns and standards. I sort of think that more sharing might well have come about later on- but again I could be way way off on that!

A somewhat useful site to view some of these patterns in the clothing context is to be found at

[url]http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/germanpatterns.pdf./url]
But, yes- anyone who says "about anything goes" could be right- I previously offered a rationale that MIGHT have affected what was done and how: if time and materials allowed and circumstances were more stable and favourable, I suspect that schemes would have been somewhat more elaborate and carefully-done. IF one is positing a last-ditch scenario-then you would expect simple, and sketchy application, and maybe odd and less "logical" colour combos due to use of whatever might be on hand.

Lets go one further.

What if Himmler got his wish? What if the German army surrendered to the allies and then joined them fighting the Russians?

What would the camo and marking be like then?

G

Thanks Bob. What a coincidence -- I was actually thinking of looking at some camo clothing references before I read your last post. The liebersmuster seems to be a good one. I know I have this camo book that featured post-war derivatives, somewhere... Cheers -- Tat

OD perhaps? Am saying so because this is how most US tanks have been painted (I may be wrong of course). Cheers -- Tat

thanks much to everyone for their ideas. lots to think about.

Possibly, Mig recently posted a "what if" like this. I think he did a great job.

G

I think it might be dark green. I have seen a picture of panther F in the osprey panther tank book in dark green citing that German high command has issued an order of dark green for all vehs.

Just to share, I did my E-10 in 3 tone with ambush, my E-100 in dark yellow with green octopus camo (similar to Elefant) and my Maus in overall panzer grey. I chose these camo schemes as I simply cannot replicate the post war oxide red or any other camo scheme nicely to my eyes.