United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, July 05, 2010 - 09:50 AM UTC
No worries mate.
Any more questions you have then let me know. I'll do my best to help.
Its a great book, by the way, isn't it? The same author has written a companion book called "Fire in the Streets" which is the full story of the Battle of Hue. Another excellent read. Have a look at it - you'll get some real inspiration for your diorama.
How's the build going, by the way?
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
#036
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,998 posts
Armorama: 1,236 posts
Posted: Monday, July 05, 2010 - 10:06 AM UTC
its getting there, just waiting for the metal barrel to turn up and need to find a crew for the turret (any suggestions), have spent the weekend adding all the photo etch to the hull and filling in all the un-required holes etc.
also having to photo every step also mean it takes longer
I will post some pictures later in the week of the M48 and Im hoping to make a start on the base as well at some point
cheers
Keith
A VETERAN - Whether active duty or retired is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "Great Britain", for an amount of "up to and including my life". That is HONOUR, and there are way too many people who forget this
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, July 05, 2010 - 10:20 AM UTC
Hi Keith,
Okay... the crew is a bit of a difficult one. While there a quite a few supposed US Vietnam AFV Crews on the market they are a little inaccurate due to the fact that they are always wearing their flak jackets. Now, I've read on more than one occasion that the M48 turret was far too cramped to wear a flak jacket inside but there may be someone out there that's going to say I'm wrong. I'm only going by what I've read in several histories of the tank crewmen in Vietnam. So, with that info in mind...well, Bravo6 do an AFV crew. The driver isn't wearing a flak jacket so he would be good for a start. If you do, however, wish your crew to be wearing flak jackets make sure it is the right one. The Marines wore a completely different flak jacket to the army. Lookout for these differences. The marines flak jacket didn't have a collar & also had a ridge on the right shoulder to stop a rifle sling sliding off.
I hope all this helps.
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Monday, July 05, 2010 - 10:25 AM UTC
By the way, Keith. You probably already know this but I'm just checking anyway. You need to lower all the suspension arms because when Tamiya modelled their M48A3 they modelled it on a vehicle parked in a museumn without a powerpack in back. Hence the vehicle sitting higher than it normally would. I'm not sure how much you've got to shorten it by but Gary Totty (callsign:Trickymissfit) will be able to help you.
I hope this helps, too.
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 06:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Keith,
Okay... the crew is a bit of a difficult one. While there a quite a few supposed US Vietnam AFV Crews on the market they are a little inaccurate due to the fact that they are always wearing their flak jackets. Now, I've read on more than one occasion that the M48 turret was far too cramped to wear a flak jacket inside but there may be someone out there that's going to say I'm wrong. I'm only going by what I've read in several histories of the tank crewmen in Vietnam. So, with that info in mind...well, Bravo6 do an AFV crew. The driver isn't wearing a flak jacket so he would be good for a start. If you do, however, wish your crew to be wearing flak jackets make sure it is the right one. The Marines wore a completely different flak jacket to the army. Lookout for these differences. The marines flak jacket didn't have a collar & also had a ridge on the right shoulder to stop a rifle sling sliding off.
I hope all this helps.
Joe.
whoever run the Marine Corps in I-Corps was sorta hung up on flak jackets (probably owned a bunch of stock in the company). They were hot and just a pain to wear. Few infantry guys ever wore them, and really the only time you ever did was when you were expecting mines or mortar fire. It also was a bad thing for a bullet to get thru a flak jacket (and they often did). But they did make great seat cushions and would help you stay warm on cold rainy nights! As for wearing a flak jacket inside a tank; that's plain stupid! I always tried to set on one when going for a chopper ride, but even on that hard floor they could have been better.
I've seen Marines wear the jackets that had the collar. But it seems like theirs may have been a bit more greener in color. Hard to say as they faded so badly over time. Ours were a grey color (faded?). Anyway I went thru three or four of them, and for mortar shrapenal they work pretty good, but a rocket would shred one like it was opening a can of tuna.
gary
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 06:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
By the way, Keith. You probably already know this but I'm just checking anyway. You need to lower all the suspension arms because when Tamiya modelled their M48A3 they modelled it on a vehicle parked in a museumn without a powerpack in back. Hence the vehicle sitting higher than it normally would. I'm not sure how much you've got to shorten it by but Gary Totty (callsign:Trickymissfit) will be able to help you.
I hope this helps, too.
Joe.
Gino has the magic number for the hull highth. I think it needs to be lowered 3mm (that's .118" on this side of the pond). Some guys say the turret is not right while others say it is. I don't have one to make measurements off of; as they are all M60's in my A.O. Perhaps we could beg Gino to post his findings for the zillionth time on here.
A further note to the above is that the old Monogram kit has really nice decales with it that right out of the 3/4Cav. Seems like they are white, but should really be in yellow; or vise versa.
gary
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:19 AM UTC
Hi Gary
Your're right. The Marines (that were in I corps) always seemed to wear their flak jacket (as seen in so many photographs) that it has almost become a marine icon! So it would make sense that their officers rigidly enforced this rule that was coming down from on high on a regular basis. It is a common myth that the vests worn back during Vietnam were bullet proof & that they would save your life in a firefight. They would provide protection from a fragmentation grenade, sure, but a 7.62mm AK round? No way!
That is why their official nomenclature is "Vest; fragmentation; & not "Vest; bullrt proof", etc, etc.
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:21 AM UTC
I always thought that marine markings were always yellow & army markings were always white. Somebody put me right, please?
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
New Mexico, United States
Joined: February 09, 2005
KitMaker: 672 posts
Armorama: 653 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:32 AM UTC
#036
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,998 posts
Armorama: 1,236 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 09:50 AM UTC
thanks Guys
I realised the suspension after reading an earlier posting by Gino so have spent the evening lowering it a bit
, always typical I find out after gluing in postion.
cheers
Keith
A VETERAN - Whether active duty or retired is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "Great Britain", for an amount of "up to and including my life". That is HONOUR, and there are way too many people who forget this
Texas, United States
Joined: June 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,696 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:10 AM UTC
I've heard that the Tamiya turret is also too shallow (from Gino, imagine that
) so I added a bit to one I have in progress. It is noticeable, here's a (poor) pic:
It's nose-down since I want to add the M8 'dozer assembly, still looking for good pics of its mount.
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:20 AM UTC
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the nice model photo. I like the heavy front end effect to accomadate the dozer. I'm waiting for one of those dozers too. You know, I cant believe there isn't an after market set out there. Manufacturers, take note!
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 04:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Gary
Your're right. The Marines (that were in I corps) always seemed to wear their flak jacket (as seen in so many photographs) that it has almost become a marine icon! So it would make sense that their officers rigidly enforced this rule that was coming down from on high on a regular basis. It is a common myth that the vests worn back during Vietnam were bullet proof & that they would save your life in a firefight. They would provide protection from a fragmentation grenade, sure, but a 7.62mm AK round? No way!
That is why their official nomenclature is "Vest; fragmentation; & not "Vest; bullrt proof", etc, etc.
Joe.
it's not so much that it would save you when you got shot, but if the bullet hit you at a glancing angle it would slip thru the kevlar plates and mushrum at the sametime. The 7.62 x 39 was a grossly over rated round, and a flak jacket only helped it. Yet I've had my flak jacket actually smoking! When you needed one you wore it. When I got tagged on a hot August afternoon it felt like somebody just kicked me in my right thigh. Didn't loose a step, and didn't realize I'd been tagged till somebody asked me about the blood all over my pants leg. I promptly droped my pants to see if Homer & Jethro were OK! And left Dodge City on the next flight out. The bullet went in about 2.5". I've been hurt worse in bar room brawls with a bunch of REMF's
gary
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 05:34 AM UTC
Well, Keith, what ever figures you decide to use for the crew, make sure they look exhausted & disheveled. The tank crews had it bad in Hue with each tank getting through about 5 crews apiece during the fight for the city. The tanks could be used again & again but the crews were being rotated. The casualty rate rocketed.
Just something to think about.
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
#036
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,998 posts
Armorama: 1,236 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 06:47 AM UTC
Thanks guys just out of interest does anybody know how the extra 50cal is fixed to the top of the commanders turret and roughly where it mounts on the turret
cheers
Keith
A VETERAN - Whether active duty or retired is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "Great Britain", for an amount of "up to and including my life". That is HONOUR, and there are way too many people who forget this
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 07:18 AM UTC
I've seen various mounts in pics. Here's an example (with a sawed-off tripod) :
Another one :
Frenchy
"Find the Bastards, then Pile On"
Col. George W.Patton III 's standing order for the troopers of the 11th Armoured Cavalry Regiment
#417
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 09:37 AM UTC
Have also seen the mount be similar to the Sherman turret pintle mount, welded directly to the top of the cupola. There's a new book on the M48 in VIetnam out by Squadron. You might want take a look. I think there are a few photos to go by in there.
Paul
Paul Roberts
Past Editor, Boresight
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
#417
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 03:54 PM UTC
Actually took a look through the book tonight. The first thing to note is that all of these modifications were done by the local depot or maintenance organisations, so there is no uniformity at all in the designs of the mounts.
Reviewing the photos of external .50 cal mounts, the most common style is an inverted C shaped bracket with the two legs of the C welded to the cupola and the MG pintle mounted to the "back" of the C. The proportions of the "C" vary greatly from example to example. The pintle is everything from cut down early WWII style mounts to very late pintles. Other external mounts include MG tripods without legs to tripods cut down even further then welded to the cupola. Its a crapshoot, really.
Get a copy of David Doyles new In Action and you'll see a bunch of different examples.
Paul
Paul Roberts
Past Editor, Boresight
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
New Mexico, United States
Joined: February 09, 2005
KitMaker: 672 posts
Armorama: 653 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 06:08 AM UTC
To all concerned. If you want to have the information at hand to build a nice 'Nam' version of the Tamiya M48A3 get a copy of Tamiya Model Magazine International 81. Issue Aug/Sept 2000 #81 is still available for order here:
http://tamiyamodelmagazine.com/. Just hit the "Shop" tab on ther homepage and scroll down to issue 81.
In that issue John Murphy(MMI,MMIR)builds two versions, an early USMC and late US Army. All the modifications that John made to correct the kits are listed.
Outta here, Mike sends . . .
North Carolina, United States
Joined: August 15, 2006
KitMaker: 408 posts
Armorama: 215 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 10:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
again thanks guys on a side note what where the roads constructed off in Vietnam in the cities like Hue, Saigon etc.
cobblestones, asphalt or just compacted dirt?
cheers
Keith
Keith - I think the correct answer is "Yes". I saw all of those in DaNang.
Semper Fi,
Dave
Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
"Some people spend an entire life time wondering if they made a difference, but the United States Marines don't have that problem."
United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 1,209 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 10:28 PM UTC
Another question about markings... Since we've established that Marine Corps markings were in yellow can anybody tell me if these markings were stencil or non-stencil type during the Vietnam War? Archer transfers do both sets so I'm curious about which one to get.
Thanks fellas.
Joe.
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right...unless you are going all the way".
On the bench:
Tamiya SAS Green Hornet Land Rover
New Mexico, United States
Joined: February 09, 2005
KitMaker: 672 posts
Armorama: 653 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 04:24 AM UTC
Looking at pictures it appears to be both. In the 65'-66' time frame when tanks were arriving from garrisons in Okinawa and Camp Pendleton the markings appear to be very crisp and uniform. Later from 67' on when tanks were being replaced or moved within battalions they look irregular and sometimes even hand painted. And on many the markings are hidden behind the spare track blocks hanging off the Grunt rail. Outta here, Mike(big fan of Brownings gun junk) sends . . .
