Bottom line,
The resin kits are going to appeal to a certain crowd that have the disposable income and skill to build it. Just because you have the only game in town and it is resin, doesn't mean that someone that builds OOB is going to buy your product, because they don't want the hassle or have the skill to work with resin.
On the other hand, the styrene model, even if it is not 100% accurate, is going to appeal to many more people, because it is not only cheaper than the resin kit, but will likely be easier to build.
And in the end, the small differences in the styrene kit vs the resin kit are going to be unnoticeable to about 99.9% of the population.
I don't think there would be much difference in sales for the resin manufacturer just for the simple fact that the clientele that is buying his product probably already has the skills to work with resin, and want that extra bit of detail. A Styrene kit coming out of the same item is probably not going to deter many of those resin buyers, because for the most part, the resin kit is out long before the styrene kit is out, so most that wanted the resin kit/conversion already has it, and the resin manufacturer has already made his sale.
I don't recall what the Panzershop DANA goes for, but I would suspect that it is a fair chunk of change. The HB DANA will probably be up there as well, but not nearly in the realm of the resin one, which is going to appeal to alot of people just on price alone.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Waiting for PE
viper29_ca
Joined: October 18, 2002
KitMaker: 2,247 posts
Armorama: 1,138 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 03:43 AM UTC
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
Armorama: 1,629 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 04:40 AM UTC
Hisham, you are certainly a strong defender of Trumpeter/Hobbyboss for some reason. It's been well documented they have produced kits that are shall we say 'heavily influenced' by previously available resin kits. Going back as far as the original Challenger II release, the AS-90, Osario, Centauro etc etc. You think it's all just a coincidence? Yes, they do make some great kits and I have a lot of them, but I'm not so naive to think that they're all originally researched kits.
Respectfully,
Jim
Respectfully,
Jim
Hisham
Joined: July 23, 2004
KitMaker: 6,856 posts
Armorama: 6,363 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 04:50 AM UTC
"for some reason"... oooh, maybe I work for them.
If you took the time to read my posts you would have noticed I said "I'm not defending Trumpeter or Hobbyboss". I also said maybe they copied these kits and maybe not, I just don't know for sure. And I don't believe anyone should accuse other people of things he doesn't even take the time to prove.
You know.. you've given me an idea.. maybe I'll apply for a job as a defender of Trumpeter and Hobbyboss. I wouldn't mind actually. Maybe they'll throw some free kits my way!
You're just hilarious with your silly insinuations
at least you gave me a good laugh today.
Hisham
If you took the time to read my posts you would have noticed I said "I'm not defending Trumpeter or Hobbyboss". I also said maybe they copied these kits and maybe not, I just don't know for sure. And I don't believe anyone should accuse other people of things he doesn't even take the time to prove.
You know.. you've given me an idea.. maybe I'll apply for a job as a defender of Trumpeter and Hobbyboss. I wouldn't mind actually. Maybe they'll throw some free kits my way!
You're just hilarious with your silly insinuations
at least you gave me a good laugh today.Hisham
pigsty
Joined: January 16, 2007
KitMaker: 1,226 posts
Armorama: 451 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 04:58 AM UTC
If there were any copying going on, it would be a civil matter, not criminal, so the standard of proof is balance of probabilities; although the accuser still has to make the case.
As for the kits themselves, here's some thoughts.
* if a kit sells well in resin (despite the price and difficulty), it's reasonable for an injection-moulding company to conclude that it might sell better in plastic. So one range overlapping another is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* of course two kits of a particular item are going to look similar! Unless one of them is by Starfix. This is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* the natural parts breakdown of a mechanical object rendered in resin or plastic is not likely to change much. Just look at the thousands of models around the world and the, perhaps, two dozen ways of assembling them. A similar parts breakdown is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* the degree of detail that a part contains depends on the finesse of the moulding, the material, the price the maker wants to sell it for, and the original item. Moulding standards are very high in both resin and plastic these days, so similar parts, broken down similarly, are likely to end up with similar amounts of detail if the maker is trying hard enough. This is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* none of us in the big wide world knows what's been going on behind the scenes. So we are not in any way qualified to throw around accusations of copying. If someone with an interest in the matter is concerned, he can take legal advice about how easy it will be, bearing in mind all that I've said above. The rest of us can only shrug and wonder.
Now, the Dana must be the oddest SPG ever* ... me want!
* and the G6, of course - me want too!
As for the kits themselves, here's some thoughts.
* if a kit sells well in resin (despite the price and difficulty), it's reasonable for an injection-moulding company to conclude that it might sell better in plastic. So one range overlapping another is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* of course two kits of a particular item are going to look similar! Unless one of them is by Starfix. This is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* the natural parts breakdown of a mechanical object rendered in resin or plastic is not likely to change much. Just look at the thousands of models around the world and the, perhaps, two dozen ways of assembling them. A similar parts breakdown is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* the degree of detail that a part contains depends on the finesse of the moulding, the material, the price the maker wants to sell it for, and the original item. Moulding standards are very high in both resin and plastic these days, so similar parts, broken down similarly, are likely to end up with similar amounts of detail if the maker is trying hard enough. This is not, in itself, proof of copying.
* none of us in the big wide world knows what's been going on behind the scenes. So we are not in any way qualified to throw around accusations of copying. If someone with an interest in the matter is concerned, he can take legal advice about how easy it will be, bearing in mind all that I've said above. The rest of us can only shrug and wonder.
Now, the Dana must be the oddest SPG ever* ... me want!
* and the G6, of course - me want too!
gcdavidson
Joined: August 05, 2003
KitMaker: 1,698 posts
Armorama: 1,563 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:00 AM UTC
That's a surprise release indeed!
Looks similar to the BRAMS SPAAG:
Looks similar to the BRAMS SPAAG:
hostias
Joined: December 25, 2008
KitMaker: 90 posts
Armorama: 84 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 08:31 AM UTC
Hello
Sounds good that the man who makes the Dana upset, we should bear in mind that when injected plastic out, I lowered sales.
Anyway, a few years ago, buy the Dana in Paris (Blast Models), when I got has mounted unlikely that there were enough flaws that prevented me from being finished.
I contacted by e-mail with the manufacturer and the answer he gave me was:
I had not bought insurance on and it was a pirated copy.
Since I have a disability and make the damaged parts is impossible for me, I have it cornered.
Reason for when you leave the Hobby Boss, I feel quite content and happy.
And for the Lord resin manufacturer, only one thing:
If everyone treats him like I treat my to lose sales do not have to leave another mark on plastic. The only charge that will not buy.
Sorry for my English and a hug to all partners.
Mon
Sounds good that the man who makes the Dana upset, we should bear in mind that when injected plastic out, I lowered sales.
Anyway, a few years ago, buy the Dana in Paris (Blast Models), when I got has mounted unlikely that there were enough flaws that prevented me from being finished.
I contacted by e-mail with the manufacturer and the answer he gave me was:
I had not bought insurance on and it was a pirated copy.
Since I have a disability and make the damaged parts is impossible for me, I have it cornered.
Reason for when you leave the Hobby Boss, I feel quite content and happy.
And for the Lord resin manufacturer, only one thing:
If everyone treats him like I treat my to lose sales do not have to leave another mark on plastic. The only charge that will not buy.
Sorry for my English and a hug to all partners.
Mon
jwest21
Joined: October 16, 2006
KitMaker: 3,374 posts
Armorama: 3,126 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 09:41 AM UTC
THat is pretty cool- and different! Maybe this means a styrene South African G6 isn't as far fetched as I thought!
35th-scale
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,212 posts
Armorama: 2,807 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 10:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAll these attacks on Trumpeter and Hobbyboss, without detailed pics to prove their arguements, are just stupid!
I guess some people think that two kits of the same vehicle are not supposed to look similar! Now that's funny.
Or is it that some people are aftaid of the competition of lower priced plastic kits, and have some personal agenda in play?
In any case, look at it and weep.. whoever you may be.. I really feel sorry for you
Hisham
Copies my boxes in M1127 and TUA is also attack to my firm?
Maybe can Trump present original drawing for boxes.
Hi Miroslav,
I've regularily seen your attacks and accusations against Trumpeter/Hobbyboss but up to now could not have been bothered to research your claims (as you never provided evidence) The claim above seemed easy enough to prove or disprove. Your box image from your own website:
Trumpeters box image from the first retail site google came up with:
So I think we can ignore your accusations going forward.
Now I can understand why the likes of Trumpeter/Hobbyboss et al upset you. You obviously put a lot of effort into your sets and that is reflected in the price. I've often admired them, but to be honest, they are out of my price range. On the other hand I've seen lots of praise and gratitude for Trump from Hisham and others (myself included) because they cater for what we like: nice modern armour in plastic at a reasonable price that builds into a nice kit. While you and Trump produce the same thing, 1/35 scale kits, you both cater for different markets. Your market is the small volume, high value that caters for the modellers that like something a bit unique or different. Trumpeter are the mass market cheaper end of the scale. Both ends of the market have their clients and can compete on quality, price and reputation or can happly co-exist together. But constant sniping does your reputation no good.
Now, getting back on track: This looks fantastic Gaoyue! Keep up the good work.
Wow, that the longest post I ever did!
djiti
Joined: November 09, 2004
KitMaker: 125 posts
Armorama: 92 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 11:28 AM UTC
maybe a solution
if manufaxcturers would see trumpy stoping copy resin kits
they can sell their masters to trumpy ?
if manufaxcturers would see trumpy stoping copy resin kits
they can sell their masters to trumpy ?
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 11:56 AM UTC
Sean-The comments from Miloslav were about the ration boxes, not the actual model kit box.
I have to agree there is something very suspect about many of these releases, and both Trumpeter and Hobby boss have copied stuff in the past (Trumpeter used to produce crap knock off's of Tamiya kits like the T-72, while HB's STRV 122 has many parts almost identical to HKCW) but sadly until it can be proven there is nothing anyone can really do. I guess a lot of the anger is down to the track record of Chinese firms and their apparent disinterest in copyright laws.
I have to agree there is something very suspect about many of these releases, and both Trumpeter and Hobby boss have copied stuff in the past (Trumpeter used to produce crap knock off's of Tamiya kits like the T-72, while HB's STRV 122 has many parts almost identical to HKCW) but sadly until it can be proven there is nothing anyone can really do. I guess a lot of the anger is down to the track record of Chinese firms and their apparent disinterest in copyright laws.
bulivyf
Vendor
Joined: April 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,450 posts
Armorama: 2,409 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 12:11 PM UTC
Sean,
We have in Czech republic old proverb:
"We talk about cars and you about goat"
I think Ration menu boxes.
We have in Czech republic old proverb:
"We talk about cars and you about goat"
I think Ration menu boxes.
35th-scale
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,212 posts
Armorama: 2,807 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 12:36 PM UTC
My mistake. So are there flaws your ration boxes that were reflected in the Trumpeter ones?
35th-scale
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,212 posts
Armorama: 2,807 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 12:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sean-The comments from Miloslav were about the ration boxes, not the actual model kit box.
I have to agree there is something very suspect about many of these releases, and both Trumpeter and Hobby boss have copied stuff in the past (Trumpeter used to produce crap knock off's of Tamiya kits like the T-72, while HB's STRV 122 has many parts almost identical to HKCW) but sadly until it can be proven there is nothing anyone can really do. I guess a lot of the anger is down to the track record of Chinese firms and their apparent disinterest in copyright laws.
And the only way it will be proven is if errors are duplicated. If two people start out to make a copy of something and both get it exactly right then that proves nothing. However, if one has an error and that is repeated in the other then that's good enough for me.
Quoted Text
Sean Mullarkey of Ireland: ten points ( as in Eurovision ).
I'm with you, it has understood everything.
A greeting.
Gracias Juankar
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 01:02 PM UTC
I dont even think that the issue is these guys directly copying other companies models. It seems to me that some of the recent rumblings about Trumpeter and HB is that their research is based on looking at someone elses model. Now if that company got the model correct in the first place then no doubt either HB or Trumpeter will as well. It seems to me that the issue is that someone has had to do a lot of hard work researching various vehicles, which Trumpeter/HB then use without any accreditation. I dont know really, thats just what I sense to be the problem....
arpikaszabo
Joined: February 13, 2006
KitMaker: 674 posts
Armorama: 637 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 01:08 PM UTC
As I see the photo its remarkably similar to the Panzershop in its proportions. But they corrected some details. I mean where the recoil cylinders meet the gun cradle. Then, the tower vision ports are much better. Its too similar to the panzershop, they should market it as version 2.0. I will buy one, beacuse I need a wheel donor for the ORIGINAL one. The panzershop wheels are downright awful.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Friday, July 09, 2010 - 04:08 PM UTC
1. BOTH kits can be original and WRONG in the same place if the research material is WRONG for both. Case in point, while there have always been RUMORS and a LOT of...complaining...about the AS-90kit from Trumpeter, it has been shown that it was not even close to a copy of the AA kit. I have seen both kits side-by-side, and while they both build a AS-90, that is about it.
2. While I feel for Miloslav/Panzershop, I hate to say that Hobby Boss is most likely to do a better overall job on the kit. Resin kits are good, but there are just some things that are better done in plastic. Better to see what Hobby Boss cannot do well on the kit and offer corrections or conversions.
3. Maybe instead of everyone pointing fingers, we should work harder on building the darn kits AND MAKING better kits for us to buy and build. Pointing fingers only gets trouble. Many resin companies simply recast kit parts in resin without any acknowledgment, such as DML tracks/wheels/sprockets in the 2S7 Pion kit. And Trumpeter got burned for doing "idea pilfering" with their E-100 kit. No one is innocent. Better to play nice and ENJOY than this BS.
Back to my V-100/M706...and T-34's
2. While I feel for Miloslav/Panzershop, I hate to say that Hobby Boss is most likely to do a better overall job on the kit. Resin kits are good, but there are just some things that are better done in plastic. Better to see what Hobby Boss cannot do well on the kit and offer corrections or conversions.
3. Maybe instead of everyone pointing fingers, we should work harder on building the darn kits AND MAKING better kits for us to buy and build. Pointing fingers only gets trouble. Many resin companies simply recast kit parts in resin without any acknowledgment, such as DML tracks/wheels/sprockets in the 2S7 Pion kit. And Trumpeter got burned for doing "idea pilfering" with their E-100 kit. No one is innocent. Better to play nice and ENJOY than this BS.
Back to my V-100/M706...and T-34's
Removed by original poster on 07/10/10 - 19:28:55 (GMT).
ot6464
Joined: July 10, 2010
KitMaker: 7 posts
Armorama: 7 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 08:34 AM UTC
nice kit, only details from plastic are terrible. Dana is very very comlicated machine, I don't know how HB make accourate details for chassis, for interior, for gun.
ot6464
Joined: July 10, 2010
KitMaker: 7 posts
Armorama: 7 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 08:38 AM UTC
Aboout Trumpeter copys....boys you know BMP-1 from Dragon? and also you know BMP-1 from Trumpeter? Yes?... it si 100% copy or not? difference is only one - Dragon have tracks from plas, Trumpeter from rubber.
ot6464
Joined: July 10, 2010
KitMaker: 7 posts
Armorama: 7 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 08:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello
Sounds good that the man who makes the Dana upset, we should bear in mind that when injected plastic out, I lowered sales.
Anyway, a few years ago, buy the Dana in Paris (Blast Models), when I got has mounted unlikely that there were enough flaws that prevented me from being finished.
I contacted by e-mail with the manufacturer and the answer he gave me was:
I had not bought insurance on and it was a pirated copy.
Since I have a disability and make the damaged parts is impossible for me, I have it cornered.
Reason for when you leave the Hobby Boss, I feel quite content and happy.
And for the Lord resin manufacturer, only one thing:
If everyone treats him like I treat my to lose sales do not have to leave another mark on plastic. The only charge that will not buy.
Sorry for my English and a hug to all partners.
Mon
Sir, you send by owner photo from open box, and photos demage or destroy parts? If not, who is problem? You want make reclamation without any demostration?
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 09:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Aboout Trumpeter copys....boys you know BMP-1 from Dragon? and also you know BMP-1 from Trumpeter? Yes?... it si 100% copy or not? difference is only one - Dragon have tracks from plas, Trumpeter from rubber.
The Trumpeter/Hobbycraft "copy" of the DML or ESCI kit is SO HORRIBLE that I would not even say it is a copy. That (the Trumpeter/Hobbycraft) kit is the WORST kit out there I have ever run across, and that is saying something. Awefull. I MIGHT be generous and say that Trumpeter looked over another BMP-1 kit before they made that pile of junk, but it is NOT a 100% copy...maybe a 30% copy.
And how can you say that the details from the Hobby Boss Dana kit are terrible when all we ahve seen are some pre-production pictures from a distance? No sprue shots, no detail shots.
And if they do poorly, then the aftermarket companies will have a lot of work to sell.
hostias
Joined: December 25, 2008
KitMaker: 90 posts
Armorama: 84 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 10:03 AM UTC
As I stated, I sent three messages.
In one of the three (I recall that there were three messages that I sent him) was documented with several photos of the Fund, all parts of the model and also of those who were deficient.
The answer I received was that I have already indicated that it is repeated below:
Dear Sir,
I'm very sorry for this problem.
But problem is
1/ I NOT cooperation with Blast model.
2/ Therefore I think, that your kit is from "second hand". You must make reclamation in Blast model firm.
3/ I make reclamation only from my dealers and my customers.
4/ For good assemble is in box CD-Rom with detail instructions and real photo vehicle.
5/ I'm sorry, but I not can open your photos.
6/
I'm sorry, but I not understand, you are first my customer when buy Dana, and have problem with instruction.
7/ By atch file I send for you all Dana's photos from my customers built.
Next review you can read in this magazines
Steel Master No.67/2005 (France)
Model Graphix 8/2002 (Japan)
Stell Art 8/2003 (Italy)
Military Armor 30/2004 (Belgium)
Military Miniatures 32 (USA)
8/ I think, that Dana is very very good kit, and this is kit only for EXPERIENCED modellers, this sentence is on the box cover.
thank you for your understanding.
Best regards
Libor
Obviously, it was easy to say that was second hand or, failing that I was unable to make the model.
I think a good way to attract customers, after that I saw that you have some models that I liked enough, but given your approach, it is impossible to dare to buy something.
Regards
In one of the three (I recall that there were three messages that I sent him) was documented with several photos of the Fund, all parts of the model and also of those who were deficient.
The answer I received was that I have already indicated that it is repeated below:
Dear Sir,
I'm very sorry for this problem.
But problem is
1/ I NOT cooperation with Blast model.
2/ Therefore I think, that your kit is from "second hand". You must make reclamation in Blast model firm.
3/ I make reclamation only from my dealers and my customers.
4/ For good assemble is in box CD-Rom with detail instructions and real photo vehicle.
5/ I'm sorry, but I not can open your photos.
6/
I'm sorry, but I not understand, you are first my customer when buy Dana, and have problem with instruction.
7/ By atch file I send for you all Dana's photos from my customers built.
Next review you can read in this magazines
Steel Master No.67/2005 (France)
Model Graphix 8/2002 (Japan)
Stell Art 8/2003 (Italy)
Military Armor 30/2004 (Belgium)
Military Miniatures 32 (USA)
8/ I think, that Dana is very very good kit, and this is kit only for EXPERIENCED modellers, this sentence is on the box cover.
thank you for your understanding.
Best regards
Libor
Obviously, it was easy to say that was second hand or, failing that I was unable to make the model.
I think a good way to attract customers, after that I saw that you have some models that I liked enough, but given your approach, it is impossible to dare to buy something.
Regards
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