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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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What vehicle(s) towed the sIG 33 gun?
Stoottroeper
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Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
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Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 - 08:46 AM UTC
Hi Bill,


Quoted Text

What made an Sd.Kfz.251 in gun-towing mode different from a regular vehicle? Were there special bins for stowing ammo? A big-assed trailer hitch?



I don't know about the hitch, it looks similar to the standard vehicles, but the 251/4 has 2 seats removed for ammo-bins. These are the one directly behind the driver and the one at the rear on the commanders side.
This was done on all four marks (A to D).
Normally the rear MG was removed, not that there was no danger of an air attack, just because there was not enough room to operate it.

Peter

bill_c
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Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 - 09:51 AM UTC
Thanks, Gents. You've all been most helpful. I love the spirit of helping that pervades this great community.
Hut
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Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Monday, July 26, 2010 - 08:52 PM UTC
Hi,

From the same source officialy the Sd Kfz was authorized to tow:
10.5cm le.FH18 in one load
10.5cm leFH 30(t) in one load
15cm Nbl. W. 41 [rocket launcher] in one load
21cm Nbl. W. 42 [rocket launcher] in one load
30cm Nbl. W. 42 [rocket launcher] in one load
28cm/32cm Nbl. W. 41 [rocket launcher] in one load

But again this is officialy, what happened in the field one can only judge from photographs.

(By the way, my source is a very usefull list I found on the internet made by Ron Klages (Feldgrau website) based on 1942 and 1943 KSTN.s of prime movers and their authorized tows)

Cheers,
Pascal
Hut
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Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 07:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,

From the same source officialy the Sd Kfz was authorized to tow:
10.5cm le.FH18 in one load
10.5cm leFH 30(t) in one load
15cm Nbl. W. 41 [rocket launcher] in one load
21cm Nbl. W. 42 [rocket launcher] in one load
30cm Nbl. W. 42 [rocket launcher] in one load
28cm/32cm Nbl. W. 41 [rocket launcher] in one load

But again this is officialy, what happened in the field one can only judge from photographs.

(By the way, my source is a very usefull list I found on the internet made by Ron Klages (Feldgrau website) based on 1942 and 1943 KSTN.s of prime movers and their authorized tows)

Cheers,
Pascal



Sorry that should read Sd Kfz 11.

Pascal
Removed by original poster on 07/28/10 - 09:34:11 (GMT).
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 03:39 AM UTC
So pre-war? Besides horsies? Anyone know when the mechanized towed version appeared?
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 06:37 AM UTC
The mechanised version would have appeared concurrently with the horse drawn version as these weapons were issues to Panzergrenadier regiments in Panzer divisions which would not have had horse drawn equipment. What the towing vehicle would have been to begin with is open to speculation, I would suspect the intended vehicle would have been the Sdkfz 11 from the beginning as all the unarmoured half tracks were designed and introduced in the 30's. Where there was a shortage a 3 ton truck or Maultier may have been pressed into service. I suspect that the SIG 33 may be too heavy for the Sdkfz 10 except in emergencies. What was the weight? If it's over 1 tonne it exceed the towing weight of the Sdkfz 10 (rated 1 tonne).
Later in the war the one Panzergrenadier regiment in a Panzer division labelled "gepanzerte" which usually meant that one battalion was in Sdkfz 251s rather than lorries, received SP SIG33s (usually on the 38T chassis). The other regiment retained towed guns.
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 06:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What was the weight?



From Wolfgang Fleischer's "German Light and Heavy Infantry Artillery 1914-1945" book :
Weight ready to march :
Motorized : 1825 Kg
Horsedrawn : 1700 Kg

HTH

Frenchy
bill_c
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 07:02 AM UTC
Thanks, Steve, that's very helpful. I guess there's some method to AFV Club's madness, since they have a very fine Sd.Kfz.11 kit.
gremlinz
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 09:32 AM UTC
Keep in mind that towed weight is a dead weight and seldom reflected the vehicles actual ability. The Sd.Kfz.9 for example has an 18t rating but towed the 22 ton Sd.Ah.116 carrying a 40 ton tank, and was used to tow 40 ton tanks when used as a recovery vehicle.
lukiftian
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 05:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

It was also used to tow the 10,5-cm leichte Feldhaubitze 18.


Yes, of course, what WAS I thinking? AFV Club has that 2 in 1 set.

Does anyone know if the mechanized towed version of the sIG 33 was even in existence prior to the war?



Certainly there was some mechanization by 1938.
gremlinz
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Hamilton, New Zealand
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 06:12 PM UTC
If it helps the ones mounted to the Pz.Kpfw.I chassis and used in Poland had the steel rimmed wheels.

Stoottroeper
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Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 09:34 PM UTC
Hi Bill,


Quoted Text

This was done on all four marks (A to D).



I'm sorry, but it was not.
The Sd.Kfz. 251/4 D was never produced, they built the Sd.Kfz. 251/9 instead.

Sorry again,

Peter
Hut
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Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The mechanised version would have appeared concurrently with the horse drawn version as these weapons were issues to Panzergrenadier regiments in Panzer divisions which would not have had horse drawn equipment. What the towing vehicle would have been to begin with is open to speculation, I would suspect the intended vehicle would have been the Sdkfz 11 from the beginning as all the unarmoured half tracks were designed and introduced in the 30's. Where there was a shortage a 3 ton truck or Maultier may have been pressed into service. I suspect that the SIG 33 may be too heavy for the Sdkfz 10 except in emergencies. What was the weight? If it's over 1 tonne it exceed the towing weight of the Sdkfz 10 (rated 1 tonne).
Later in the war the one Panzergrenadier regiment in a Panzer division labelled "gepanzerte" which usually meant that one battalion was in Sdkfz 251s rather than lorries, received SP SIG33s (usually on the 38T chassis). The other regiment retained towed guns.



Actually the hull rear was reinforced so it was able to tow the sIG 33 and it was the official designated towing vehicle for this gun from 1942 at least.

Cheers,
Pascal
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 - 06:49 AM UTC
Talking about German horsedrawn artillery (and other equipments), I've got about 30 period pics looking for a good home. PM if you're interested.

Frenchy
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 05:59 AM UTC
Slightly off topic, but in the photo posted by Frank Glacken on p. 1 showing an Sig 33 being towed by an Sd Kfz 11, the half-track has what looks like the divisional insignia of SS Pz Div 'Viking' (a curved Swastika in a shield) and the standing officer in the rear looks like he is wearing SS collar tabs, yet the vehicle has a WH licence plate. Could this be an army vehicle 'commandeered' by the SS? Of course the SS could get away with most anything, including murder, (which they did!). ;(
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 08:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually the hull rear was reinforced so it was able to tow the sIG 33 and it was the official designated towing vehicle for this gun from 1942 at least.


Thanks for this info Pascal. I have the SIG33 in my stash and the Revell (ex-Esci) Demag is nice & cheap, so would make good combo. The figures can go crew the Trumpeter s.K.18 10.5cm.
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