Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 09:19 AM UTC
Hey Guys,
I'm busy to get started with making a diorama. But I found out that my inital plan was way to hard to start with. My plan is to make something more easy and smaller. My plan is to make a PZH 2000 in a dug-in firing position. Now i need my Pzh to look as the Dutch army uses it in Afghanistan.
There are 3 things that I would like to know:
1. I know that eduard had a photo etched set for the pzh2000 I wasn't able to find any thing on their site or anywhere else on the www. Is there anyone who has this set or is able to tell me where to find it?
2. The dutch PZH has a top attack armor on its turret and on around the drivers compartiment. Is there anyone who has a suggestion to make these blocks with the rubber pins?
3. The Pzh wich was stationed at Tarin Kowt had a rack on the rearside of the turret does anyone have a suggesion to make or aquire a rack like that?
Cheers Remi
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
Armorama: 286 posts
Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 11:37 AM UTC
Hello Remi,
you can find and buy the PE-set on Eduard own site
http://www.eduard.cz ; it's the No. 35288 "Panzer Haubitze 2000" or here:
http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/eduard-pzhaubitze-2000-35288-p-18551.html 
Michael
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 07:51 AM UTC
Now you know where to get the pe parts. I'm sorry that i can't help you with your other questions but let me tell you something: do yourself a favour and order the workable track set from Bronco! The rubber tracks included in the Revell kit are terrible! The Broncos are really worth the money, i promise.
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 08:38 AM UTC
@Gotrek58
Thanks for helping me out on the Photo etched set just orderd a set of them.
@ Leopard-2
Do the tracks have the same curve inbetween each set of blocks? I would actually be needing tracks without rubber blocks. But I believe there is no such set...
cheers Remi
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:19 AM UTC
Yes, the curve is the same. And the tracks seem to fit pretty good onto the drive spockets also.
Why do you need tracks without rubber pads? I've only seen photos of dutch PZH2000s in Afghanistan with the pads attached but also without them.
For example (look closely):
But even if you really want tracks without rubber pads the Broncos are the better choise because you can sand away the pads from the plastic parts. A lot of work that would take a few days maybe, i know. Try to to that on vinly tracks --> impossible!
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 11:13 AM UTC
Hey Leopard-2
The photo I've put online over here are from my private collection. I've served on PZH in afghanistan. Our gun had all its pads driven off... we where driving iron only
Cheers Remi
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 06:35 PM UTC
Dude what where you doing there? Racing around all day?! ;-)
Seriously, makes sense to me. I don't think that there are many asphalted roads in Afghanistan. With pad free tracks the tank should be able to reach more traction. As we know, that's why the pads are removable.
Just get the Broncos and you'll be fine, believe me. Sanding away the pads may become a little bit nerving but you'll be happy. Besides only a few of the pads are visible in the end. So you don't have to make an affort with all of them.
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 11:08 PM UTC
Nah we didn't drive all day. Just a few times a week. Unless we had to give fire support.
I'll see if i'm able to buy them somewhere. What do these tracks cost?
Cheers
Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 12:03 AM UTC
Dear guys, as a Dutch artillery officer a remark to your discussion.
The pads were worn off, not deliberatly taken out. It certainly does not improve the grip of a track if you remove the pads. Remi is right with his statement that the pads "just" got lost during movement due to debries and friction.
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 01:41 AM UTC
Thank you Paul for making my more clear.
Now my questions still remain. How could i at best make the addon armor and the rack.
Is there maybe a PE kit wich contains some sort of rack that looks like a decent resemblance?
Cheers
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 02:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is there maybe a PE kit wich contains some sort of rack that looks like a decent resemblance?
Maybe you could scratchbuild it ? I believe this rack is made with Hesco mesh (used for Hesco bastions). Hesco mesh size is 76,2mm x 76,2mm, that should be about 2,1mm x 2,1mm in 1/35th scale. Now all you have to do is finding a suitable PE mesh and some Evergreen strips
Aber item S 04 looks the part, but as I don't have it to measure it I can't be 100 % sure...
HTH
Frenchy
"Find the Bastards, then Pile On"
Col. George W.Patton III 's standing order for the troopers of the 11th Armoured Cavalry Regiment
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 02:32 AM UTC
@ Remi:
Bronco tracks cost about 15 to 17 €uros.
Quoted Text
The pads were worn off, not deliberatly taken out. It certainly does not improve the grip of a track if you remove the pads.
That's good. It should be possible to get a good result by just sanding down the pads of the workable tracks. Just like i've typed before. But are you sure that removing the pads doesn't improve the traction? Here in Germany it's called "Kampfkette" when the pads are removed as far as i know. In peacetime it's prohibited to drive with Kampfketten on asphalted roads. Usually these tracks are not in use, even for offroad exercises.
That's what i've heard but of course i may be wrong.
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 02:34 AM UTC
I've found a picture of a dutch Panzerhaubitze 2000 with pretty worn off track pads:
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 03:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But are you sure that removing the pads doesn't improve the traction?
The purpose of removable rubber track pads is not for traction. The metal has no more traction than rubber pads. The reason for the rubber is cost. Just like tires on your car, it is cheaper to replace rubber pads when they wear down than it is to replace the entire metal track.
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Showcase
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: November 18, 2003
KitMaker: 894 posts
Armorama: 643 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 04:24 AM UTC
just one thing about the Eduard set. It comes with brackets for the antennas on the rear of the turret. Better think twice before cutting off the plastic part on the kit turret. If you compare the PE part with one of your pictures, you know why..
Matthijs
"We don't know anything about their race, history, or culture, but one thing's for sure. They stand for everything we stand against."
Zapp Brannigan from the cartoon series "Futurama"
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 05:22 AM UTC
Thanks guys,
I've just bought the tracks on ebay for about 6$
Set my local Modelkits store to work for searching the fine mesh PE
Now its just the armor Remaining
Cheers
Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 08:53 AM UTC
The racks ( I guess, since you were part of the gun's crew, you do have photo's for the lay-out) can be scratch build from Evergreen strip. The wiring can be made from anti-fly-curtain (in Dutch "horregaas"). Since the added armour is unique maybe you could give it a try with resin poored in a form. If you oversize the pins at least you could give an impression. Since this added armour was rather new you may get some information about the state of the howitser during its first period of stationing in TK.
Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 09:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
But are you sure that removing the pads doesn't improve the traction?
The purpose of removable rubber track pads is not for traction. The metal has no more traction than rubber pads. The reason for the rubber is cost. Just like tires on your car, it is cheaper to replace rubber pads when they wear down than it is to replace the entire metal track.
As an add to this:
The pads are an adaption to peace time circumstances. The are less noisy and cause far less damage to the road structures.
Pads are bolted to the tracks and although the rubber is quite touch it wears of due to debries, stones, the movement and during turns. The rougher the underground the higher the friction the higher the wear of the shorter the life span of the pads.
It is also a matter of sheer economis to replace them. While being in Afghanistan the units not seldomly used their vehicles far over the regular periods, used while in the baraques in Holland. Also, breaking the tracks and replacing pads takes quite some time and is not the crew's most favorite job. Next to that, having a deliberately broken track the howitser is " off duty".
Take alook at Diehl's track website to get an impression of the track types.
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 09:54 AM UTC
It is indeed not the crews most favourite job, at least not in those circumstances. I know it was already quite a tough job to do maintenance on the tracks we had to check the track connectors about every week to be sure they woudn't let go.
@Paul: Talking from experience: It is actually not necesarry to break the tracks to put on new pads. We had to put on new pads onto the tracks a couple of weeks ago. We used the same technique or manner as the Leopard crews did, Changing them with the track still on. We where able to do about 90% of both tracks with a 5man crew in about 6 hours. The only problem is that there isn't much space around the idler wheel to get the pads out. Max 4 at a time.
Cheers
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 04:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
But are you sure that removing the pads doesn't improve the traction?
The purpose of removable rubber track pads is not for traction. The metal has no more traction than rubber pads. The reason for the rubber is cost. Just like tires on your car, it is cheaper to replace rubber pads when they wear down than it is to replace the entire metal track.
Metal doesn't afford more traction by friction, i know that. The reason why rubber is used for tyres is just GRIP ;-) .
You're right related to the cost and replacement in peace time. Tracks without pads would rapidly worn off. But if it gets to traction it's better to use tracks WITHOUT pads. Why? Just because the holes where the pads get put in affort petter performance. The tracks nearly cling to the top coat of the ground. Especially when driving in sludge and sand it's an advantage. To get even morge grip, (snow) aroursers can be mounted.
But when it comes to asphalt, rubber pads are a must. Just imagine an emergency stop with "naked" tracks... The sound would nearly rape your ears. But the flying sparks would look pretty spectacular. :-D
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefEngland - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 05:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
But are you sure that removing the pads doesn't improve the traction?
The purpose of removable rubber track pads is not for traction. The metal has no more traction than rubber pads. The reason for the rubber is cost. Just like tires on your car, it is cheaper to replace rubber pads when they wear down than it is to replace the entire metal track.
Gino I believed in the UK at least that the rubber was used to prevent damage to roads, at least that is what I was told.
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 07:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Gino I believed in the UK at least that the rubber was used to prevent damage to roads, at least that is what I was told.
It is a combo of both. The rubber does preserve the roads as well.
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Showcase
Bayern, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 220 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 09:47 AM UTC
The rubber also dampens the running gear and the noise inside the tank and absorbs partially shocks. That's why the road and idler wheels are also rubber bandaged.
Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Monday, October 25, 2010 - 03:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The rubber also dampens the running gear and the noise inside the tank and absorbs partially shocks. That's why the road and idler wheels are also rubber bandaged.
:-?
Hopefully everybody has now added his knowledge about the "why rubberized" and can we continue with the item: PZH 2000 and Remi's progress........
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: October 04, 2009
KitMaker: 155 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Monday, October 25, 2010 - 04:43 AM UTC
Thanks Paul,
I heard from my home front that the eduard photo etched parts have arrived. Its now just a matter of waiting for the revell 1/35 Pzh2000.
What material would be best to use to make the dug-in position. I heard of tempex or styrofoam. But tempex is far to rough to use as a base... any suggestions?
Cheers Remi
