Heck, didnt Israel use ME-109's in the beginning.

One question, wouldn't the IDF even after changing the engine and transmission, wouldn't they also change out the suspension? They seem to like the bogie system from the Centurion, and have a version on the Merkava, just to make repairs easier on the crews and get the vehicles back in service faster?

Why woukdn't the IDF tear off and plate over the empty Kugelblende, Paul?

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One question, wouldn't the IDF even after changing the engine and transmission, wouldn't they also change out the suspension? They seem to like the bogie system from the Centurion, and have a version on the Merkava, just to make repairs easier on the crews and get the vehicles back in service faster?

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First off changing the suspension on an existing tank simply isn't worth the effort. The interior would have to be gutted, the hull sides reinforced to take the stresses, which further changes the interior, the dynamics of the ride change, etc. etc. Mostly, in this case, my assumption is that they IDF got these right after 1947, like they got their Shermans. At that point they didn't have the technical capability to make that sort of change, Once they did have the capability, the Centurions and M60s were coming into service and it wasn't worth the bother.

On the Sherman it was easy to swap out the VVSS for HVSS, on other tanks, not so much.

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One question, wouldn't the IDF even after changing the engine and transmission, wouldn't they also change out the suspension? They seem to like the bogie system from the Centurion, and have a version on the Merkava, just to make repairs easier on the crews and get the vehicles back in service faster?

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First off changing the suspension on an existing tank simply isn't worth the effort. The interior would have to be gutted, the hull sides reinforced to take the stresses, which further changes the interior, the dynamics of the ride change, etc. etc. Mostly, in this case, my assumption is that they IDF got these right after 1947, like they got their Shermans. At that point they didn't have the technical capability to make that sort of change, Once they did have the capability, the Centurions and M60s were coming into service and it wasn't worth the bother.

On the Sherman it was easy to swap out the VVSS for HVSS, on other tanks, not so much.

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

Since the IDF liked the Centurion so much I would imagine that they would have built a Panther using the same horstmann suspension.

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

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Well, my build doesn't live in the world of Israelis building their own Panthers, however, for completion's sake, the Israelis didn't have any possibility of making their own tank of any kind in 1947 or for many years thereafter.

If you were looking at a medium tank to build and pattern your new armoured force after in 1947, you'd have likely picked the Centurion right off the bat versus trying to modify Panthers and get a totally new industry off the ground at the same time. If the Israelis had built Panthers any time before 1956 they would have almost _had_ to keep them exactly as the Germans built them with only very small changes. They simply didn't have the heavy industrial capacity to do anything else.

Paul

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

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Well, my build doesn't live in the world of Israelis building their own Panthers, however, for completion's sake, the Israelis didn't have any possibility of making their own tank of any kind in 1947 or for many years thereafter.

If you were looking at a medium tank to build and pattern your new armoured force after in 1947, you'd have likely picked the Centurion right off the bat versus trying to modify Panthers and get a totally new industry off the ground at the same time. If the Israelis had built Panthers any time before 1956 they would have almost _had_ to keep them exactly as the Germans built them with only very small changes. They simply didn't have the heavy industrial capacity to do anything else.

Paul

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Using your logic they would have simplified the suspension because it would use less of the industrial capacity. By 1956 they would have probably used the US Torsion bar. They would have been exposed to simpler torso bars through the M48 and the T-54/T-55.

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

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Well, my build doesn't live in the world of Israelis building their own Panthers, however, for completion's sake, the Israelis didn't have any possibility of making their own tank of any kind in 1947 or for many years thereafter.

If you were looking at a medium tank to build and pattern your new armoured force after in 1947, you'd have likely picked the Centurion right off the bat versus trying to modify Panthers and get a totally new industry off the ground at the same time. If the Israelis had built Panthers any time before 1956 they would have almost _had_ to keep them exactly as the Germans built them with only very small changes. They simply didn't have the heavy industrial capacity to do anything else.

Paul

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Using your logic they would have simplified the suspension because it would use less of the industrial capacity. By 1956 they would have probably used the US Torsion bar. They would have been exposed to simpler torso bars through the M48 and the T-54/T-55.

I was thinking about the manufacturing angle. What if the post WWII German tank force was based on their best tank, but "Westernized". The suspension on the M26/M46/M47 was designed for a tank about the same weight as the Panther.

That tank will be the basis for the planned improved IDF Panther. One of a group of Panthers sent to the IDF as part of the reparations from Germany.

Given that the Panther turret was much wider than it needed to be for the 75mm, and the very strong construction due to the weight and recoil of the 75mm, I see no problem with the 105 being mounted by the IDF.

Add the M48A3 engine, adapted from the Centurion layout, and a few other hull modifications and I think it will make an interesting project. Not sure what all the problems will be, and the only hindrance will be not going too crazy.

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?

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Well, my build doesn't live in the world of Israelis building their own Panthers, however, for completion's sake, the Israelis didn't have any possibility of making their own tank of any kind in 1947 or for many years thereafter.

If you were looking at a medium tank to build and pattern your new armoured force after in 1947, you'd have likely picked the Centurion right off the bat versus trying to modify Panthers and get a totally new industry off the ground at the same time. If the Israelis had built Panthers any time before 1956 they would have almost _had_ to keep them exactly as the Germans built them with only very small changes. They simply didn't have the heavy industrial capacity to do anything else.

Paul

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Using your logic they would have simplified the suspension because it would use less of the industrial capacity. By 1956 they would have probably used the US Torsion bar. They would have been exposed to simpler torso bars through the M48 and the T-54/T-55.

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Disagree.

While the Horstmann suspension might be a bit simpler to manufacture, remember we're talking about them starting an entire industry here. If they have the whole drawings for the Panther, as is, then it's far easier to tool up for that than to have to redesign _anything_ including designing a new Horstmann suspension (unless they stole the design from the Brits were not talking to the Israelis at this point) and making the necessary mods to the Panther to fit either a new or stolen Horstmann suspension.

But, as I said, in the time we're talking about the Israelis didn't have the industrial capacity to doo any of this.

Similarly they didn't see any details of American or Russian torsion bar suspensions until later in the 60s by which time they were getting Centurions and M48s of their own and no need to totally manufacture their own tank or carve up the "Panthers" which would be obsolescent at that point.

Paul