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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
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Early Leopard 1 Project
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 08:35 AM UTC
Hello Forum,

Who knows why the heart wants what it wants, or why those same love struck individuals choose to take on difficult modeling subjects? We may never know.

I rescued this fossil from the bargin bin at a recent show and haven't been able to get it off my mind. Armed with some limited information on this mark, I'm looking to build a batch 3 tank. I'm going to use found or scratchbuilt part to bring it to life.

Any Leopard experts are encouraged to join in and help me stay on the right path!

First pics....




Thanks for looking.
Ryan
sauceman
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 10:16 AM UTC
Neat, I have one of these in the stash as well. I'm interested to see which direction you go with it, might give me some ideas

Have fun!



cheers
ptruhe
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 10:35 AM UTC
Don't glue the barrel. See if someone can spare the unshrouded barrel from the Tamiya JGSDF Type 74 kit. The kit barrel is oddly shaped.

The back of the turret is missing a step down from the area around the hatches. Scribe a line and sand down from the line to the back of the turret. Reference the pictures here.

The turret nose has a wierd shape but I've never looked into correcting this part.

The best part of the kit is that it has the correct tread plate on the front 'fender' for the 1st batch but if you cut them off and try to fit to an Italeri hull then you realize there is a difference in the hull shape.

I'm not sure what Tamiya used as the basis for the kit but the hull length doesn't match with a Italeri/Testors/Revell Leopard 1 hull.

Also from the top of my head what makes this closer to a batch 1 or prototype is the lack of a cover on the shock absorbers and the shape of the exhaust vents at rear of the sides. The extra hump is a good indicator of what batch a Leopard 1 started as. Also the square telephone box at the rear is a batch 1 feature. And the kit tracks are a batch 1 item as well.

Paul
barkingdigger
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 11:03 AM UTC
Ryan,

Paul has pinpointed the main issues. If you really want a Batch 3 tank you could plunder the equally-cheap Tamiya Leo 1A4 kit to get the round telephone box for the rear, the big lifting eyes, and the side vents. There are minor dimensional issues with the hull because it started life as a motorized toy, and they can't be fixed so just avoid detailed measuring!

Otherwise, I'd just accept it as a Batch 1 beast and have fun! (I have two in the stash awaiting their turn on the bench...)

Tom
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 11:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't glue the barrel. See if someone can spare the unshrouded barrel from the Tamiya JGSDF Type 74 kit. The kit barrel is oddly shaped.

The back of the turret is missing a step down from the area around the hatches. Scribe a line and sand down from the line to the back of the turret. Reference the pictures here.

The turret nose has a wierd shape but I've never looked into correcting this part.

The best part of the kit is that it has the correct tread plate on the front 'fender' for the 1st batch but if you cut them off and try to fit to an Italeri hull then you realize there is a difference in the hull shape.

I'm not sure what Tamiya used as the basis for the kit but the hull length doesn't match with a Italeri/Testors/Revell Leopard 1 hull.

Also from the top of my head what makes this closer to a batch 1 or prototype is the lack of a cover on the shock absorbers and the shape of the exhaust vents at rear of the sides. The extra hump is a good indicator of what batch a Leopard 1 started as. Also the square telephone box at the rear is a batch 1 feature. And the kit tracks are a batch 1 item as well.

Paul


Thanks Paul, Sounds like I need to keep it batch 1 and make the best of it!

1. I have the Type 74 winterized...so no worries there.

2. You mentioned altering the turret roof...did you mean to add a referance shot?

3. Do you know of a good replacement track set?

Ryan
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 11:30 AM UTC
[quote]Ryan,

Paul has pinpointed the main issues. If you really want a Batch 3 tank you could plunder the equally-cheap Tamiya Leo 1A4 kit to get the round telephone box for the rear, the big lifting eyes, and the side vents. There are minor dimensional issues with the hull because it started life as a motorized toy, and they can't be fixed so just avoid detailed measuring!

Otherwise, I'd just accept it as a Batch 1 beast and have fun! (I have two in the stash awaiting their turn on the bench...)



Thanks Tom, I can see the Batch 3 unit will be a project for another time.

I have the 1A4 but don't want to cut it up just yet. I have found another troubling detail just ahead of the engine screen. Looks like there are (2) long cylindrical(ish) screens that are molded solid in the Tam kit. Are these infact open screens?

Ryan

The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 11:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Neat, I have one of these in the stash as well. I'm interested to see which direction you go with it, might give me some ideas

Have fun!



cheers


Thanks Rick,
If I could just bottle the enthusiasm I have right now to get started....so I can pour it all over myself once the project starts stalling to keep me going!

Ryan
ptruhe
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 03:09 PM UTC
Ryan,

I forgot to post the link but I took a quick picture. See below. The Tamiya turret is in the bottow right.

AFV Club makes a M26/M46 T84E1 track that is suitable but there is a space issue at least with the Italeri hull. Not sure if it fits the Tamiya hull better. See this build:
http://www.panzer-modell.de/berichte/leopard_1/leopard.htm

I've got some PE parts for the screens you are describing. It's not really needed on the Italeri hulls.



Paul
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 03:16 PM UTC
Tonights update:

The Leopard 1A4 must die!

Since I have this kit also in the stash I took it out and compared a few things and I'm thinking converting the A4 to a batch 3 will be easier than making do with the older kit...I'll explain.

Take a look at this pic, the older L1 is on the left, the A4 is on the right. The A4 is much more accurate in detail than the L1. For example the intake grills are atleast present on the A4. The engine deck screen and associated fittings are also far more accurate.

The drawback to using the A4 kit would be loosing the neat diamond plate fender detail, but I think that would be far easier ro scratchbuild then trying to dress up the non exsistent engine grills, etc. on the odler hull

The next issue are the road wheels and drive sprocket.......the light green units are from the older kit and the dark green is the A4. Again the A4 kit outshines the older kit in detail, since these features seem to be identical (to my eye) these would be the better choice. Check out that center poly cap arrangment on the older kit....don't see that turning out well!



So here is where I'm out.....

Batch 3 Leopard 1build using the following:
1. Turret from older kit show above.
2. Hull, running gear etc. from the A4 kit.
3. Gun from the Japanese Type 74.
4. Scratchbuilt details including new diamond plate fenders.
5. Tracks...still need to sort this out......AFV Club M47???

How does this sound?

Ryan
ptruhe
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 03:31 PM UTC
Let me review my grand Leopard 1 plans and see if I can spare one of my 5 Italeri Leopard 1A2 kits.

See my comment above about the tracks.

Paul
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 03:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Let me review my grand Leopard 1 plans and see if I can spare one of my 5 Italeri Leopard 1A2 kits.

See my comment above about the tracks.

Paul


10-4 on the tracks, do you see a problem with using the Tamiya 1A4 as a doner kit?

Ryan
ptruhe
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 04:44 PM UTC
It's worth a shot. I'd start with seeing if the Kampfpanzer turret can be corrected.

Paul
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 04:59 PM UTC
Agreed, I was thinking that would be the easy part!

Ryan
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 01:32 AM UTC
Good start on this rare tank ! Your studdy is also a good thing

Fabrice
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 07:19 AM UTC
Dear Ryan
A big well done for tackling the old tamiya leopard 1!!!,Have you read or got the leopard trilogy by Michael shackleton?,They are the leo bibles!,Mike knows his stuff and he reviews leopard kits as well,Im a big leo 1 fan ut am not brave enough to tackle an early version.
cheers from Richard.
ptruhe
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 08:50 AM UTC
The Tankograd Leopard 1 books by Frank Lobitz are pretty useful as well but very hard to find.

Paul
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 10:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dear Ryan
A big well done for tackling the old tamiya leopard 1!!!,Have you read or got the leopard trilogy by Michael shackleton?,They are the leo bibles!,Mike knows his stuff and he reviews leopard kits as well,Im a big leo 1 fan ut am not brave enough to tackle an early version.
cheers from Richard.


Hi Richard,
Mr Shackleton was kind enough to put up with a few back and forth email messages on the subject, he set me straight on a few issues.

Thanks you for following along.
Ryan
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 11:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Tankograd Leopard 1 books by Frank Lobitz are pretty useful as well but very hard to find.

Paul


Thanks Paul,
I do not have these, but Mr Lobitz had responded to some questions I had.

Tonight I'm going to take your advice and compare the turret against the 1/35 plans I have to see exactly where I'm at.

On the other subject of new fenders I'm going to have to build, has anyone had experience with the styrene diamond plate, or photo etched sheets?

Ryan

haribeau44
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 01:22 PM UTC
Hallo, Ryan,

I have been looking for the pattern of the fenders and did not find it on the market.
So there should be that problem, too.

Accurate Armour has a gun barrel for the 105mm gun unter no. B35009
105mm L7 Gun .

Harald
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 02:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hallo, Ryan,

I have been looking for the pattern of the fenders and did not find it on the market.
So there should be that problem, too.

Accurate Armour has a gun barrel for the 105mm gun unter no. B35009
105mm L7 Gun .

Harald


Harald, Thanks for the input, there may be some "close enough" detail for this project, but I'm hopefull I can figure something out.

Thanks for the heads up on the AA gun.

Ryan
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 02:29 PM UTC
Tonights update:

Turret Trouble!

The ancient Tamiya turret has some odd feature that do not match Shackleton's drawings

This pic shows the side profile of the unit.....it seems the "snakes nostrils" ranging plugs stand slightly proud of top of the turret (to my teared up eye). With the exception of the oval plate that the crew access hatches are contained in the top should be flat as shown on the detailed drawings.


The head on profile in my opinion is spot on.


Now on the plan view...oh boy. The turret should follow a gentle tear drop shape towards the gun. As we can see in the pic, the sides have a noticable flat mid turret. This will need to be recontoured to match the drawings.
Also as Paul has illustrated above the oval shaped double hatch plate has a fictional rear "belly". This plate is also too narrow and could move forward a tick. The antenna mounts seem to be a tick to far forward, but this may be overkill.


The ranging sights seem to be at the right station point in elevation and plan, this is good. So it seems the main issues are as follows:

1. Fix teardrop contour.
2. Plane down turret roof.
3. Rebuild new oval shaped hatch plate.

I may also find other issues but this is it so far.

I think the best way to true up the roof is to use my mill...set at a low speed it should work to plane down the turret to allow to be level and straight as an arrow. The bigger issue is how to hold the part while milling.....


Once the roof is level and true, it will be an easy affair to construct a new oval shaped hatch plate.

The teardrop repair will be easier, I'll just back fill the rear of the turret with epoxy incase I sand through.

Ryan
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 03:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hallo, Ryan,

I have been looking for the pattern of the fenders and did not find it on the market.
So there should be that problem, too.
Harald


Hey Harald, I wonder if this archer product would work?
http://www.archertransfers.com/ASSETS/SurfaceDetailsPg5.pdf

#88042

Ryan
haribeau44
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Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 06:36 AM UTC
No ,Ryan,
I don't think that any of them is only similar to what you need.
Sorry!

Harald
barkingdigger
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Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 07:07 AM UTC
Ryan,

Is the Tamiya turret the right length? From Paul's four-turret comparison it appears to be about 6mm longer from rear to range-finders than the others, which goes some way to explain the flat sides - looks like Mr T stretched it. If that's the case you could start by chopping a 6mm band from in front of the oval turret plate...

Tom
ptruhe
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Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

On the other subject of new fenders I'm going to have to build, has anyone had experience with the styrene diamond plate, or photo etched sheets?


i had the thought, but I've never followed through, of taking a thin brass or aluminum sheet rubbing of the fenders on the Tamiya kit and bedding them down on top of the other Italeri fender after sanding it smooth. But you've have to account for the difference in hull angle where the fender meets the hull.

Paul
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