Hi all,

I am searching for my next model project, after finishing my actuall Panzer III build for the Desert fox campaign.
As I got the “taste” of Shermans in the desert, I would like to use this one as example:


Source IWM photo

Till now I was not able to clearify the following:

1. Has anyone info to which unit this Sherman belongs, to use the correct markings ?
2. As it seems that this Sherman must have been one of the very 1st with the VVSS suspension with “offset rollers”, I suppose the skid plates were this one:


source http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia

Right ?
Note: I came to this, because in the Concord book “British Sherman Tanks” is shown a Sherman parade line of the 6 Armd Div., March 1943, Tunisia, were exact this skid plates are clearly visible on the 1st and even 2nd vehicle of the line.

As model basic, I will use the Cyber-Hobby Kit Nr. 6527 “Sherman III DV Initial Production” with the VVSS units from an Academy “General Grant” Kit, where I even get offered alternatively the mentioned “very early” skid plates.

Thanks in advance

Erich

My copy of that photo is labelled as a Sherman of 2 Armd Bde, 1 Armd Div in Benghazi 1942.
So that would make it either The Queens Bays [40], 9th Queens Royal Lancers [86] or 10th Royal Hussars [67] carrying the 1 Armd Div rhino.

Can't help with the rest I'm afraid.

Cheers,
Ken

Good luck on idendifying the Regiment but she is definately a 2AB Tanlk as Dutchy said. I may have another photo of this tank but as usual when needed cannot be found. Most of the 8th Army M4A2 had the M4 type of suspension and if you haven't bought your kit yet I'd recommend Tasca 35-017 (already has the correct suspension)over the DML/Cyber Hobby kit anyday. THe DML Sherman III's just are not in the same league as the Tasca ones for buildability and fit.
Cheers
Al

Thanks both of you for the replies,

From the photos I know its dated as "2 Armd Bde, 1 Armd Div in Benghazi 1942"
In fact I look for the Regiment.
My suggestion, or better if I should guess I would say "The Queens Bays [40]" bacause of the camouflage style and the style of the AOS combination on the left front fender (which unfortunately is blacked by the censors).

@ Al,
thanks for the Tasca recommandation. Actually I was focussed on DML because I get them for good money at my LHS, and as Tasca is not in his sortiment I did put in consideration.
But you are right, the Cybber-Hobby MkIII DV is only 7 € chaeper than the Tasca, and checking the sprues,Tasca gives even some interesting "left over" spare parts. So I will change the model basic.

Erich

If you have Gavin Birch's Images of War, Sherman Tank, page 51 has a close up of the same tank. the tank number is T-7437 ad there is a holly sprig chalked in on the dark portion at the rear of the turret. the photo shows the crew enjoying a Christmas meal while a soldier escorts two German POWs past the tank. The bunting is made from torn newspapers.

Best wishes,
Grant

Looking at the second pic (IWM E20571) in Mr Birch's Sherman Tank Images of War I'd say it is a 9 Lancers tank by the hat badges on the crew in the foreground. That is the only Hat badge of 2AB that comes close to the one in the picture. By that reckoning it would have an Aos of 86 and Yellow Squadron Symbols.

Of course further doubt arises looking at the hat badges and there is the possibility that this is a Warkickshire Yeomanry Cap badge which would make it the Junior Regiment of 9 Armd Bde with Blue Squadron Tactical Markings and an Aos of 67. 9 AB also had a White Horse on Green Formation sign usually coupled above the Aos.

neither is definitive but maybe a good place to start looking

Cheers
Al

Regarding the track skid, it is difficult to be definitive. The initial, symmetrical, skid appears on extremely early VVSS bogies with the trailing roller mount, but appear to have have been replaced almost immediately with the second pattern skid with the "rising wave" shape (eventually replaced by the "breaking wave" skid, which curved over itself). I am not sure if any of the initial pattern skids ever went overseas, though I have seen M4's in North Africa with the second pattern skid. Since these areas are nearly always shadowed in photos, you may just have to take your best guess.

Hi Gerald,

Thanks for the Infos, even to all the Others too.

This photo shows the initial, symmetrical skid on a VVSS trailer boogie with spacer below the roller axle, on a MkIII, non DV with cast driver/co-drivers hood of 26 th AB/ 6th Div. Even the tank behind the one in front has the symmetrical wave, but is a MkIII DV. So their seems to be a real mix of components on Shermans.


Source: IWM
Text: Sherman tanks on parade during a visit by the Turkish Military Mission, 28 March 1943.

Even an interesting model example.

BTW: Searching to all available kit sprues pic. in the net, I could not find any "early" VVSS trailer boogie without the spacer below of the roller axle. Means Acadamey, Tasca, Dragon has always the trailer arm with spacer. So I have to modifiy by myself or is their a aftermarket solution ?
According to the photo above: The symmetrical skid indicates a very early VVSS, but when was the spacer below the traling roller mount introduced. Because the MKIII on my 1st pic. has (as far I can see in the bigger, clearer printed photo in Concord publ.) a DV hull and no spacer, but between both photos are "only" around 3 months of date, and one is a MkIII DV and the other not ?

Erich

Very interesting photo. Me old eyes are not what they used to be - does that Sherman have a cast nose? Any more photos with the initial skid? Stevie.

@ Stevie,

Not your eyes are the problem, the photo I found is so small.
A lager picture is in the Concord publication “British Sherman Tanks” .
This Mk III (1st in the line) with the “4” in an 75° angle, has a 3-piece nose, the cast driver/co-driver hoods, a protection shield for the turret MG and a U-shackle hang down from the left front hull lifting eye. The VVSS has a spacer below the return roller, dished wheels and the initial “half moon” waved skid and (as it looks to me) T51E1 tracks.
The decals for this Sherman are even in the BISON Decal set “British Tanks in North Africa” 35086. In combination with DML 6313 Sherman Mk III one of my favourite for the next build.

The 2nd Sherman in this line has a DV hull, even a 3-piece nose (at least I think to be able to indentify this), VVSS bogey with spoked wheels and even with half moon skid. Turret MG even with protection cover.
Both vehicles are described as from the 16th/5th Lancers of 26 AB. The Shermans seems to be in their original “delivery color” Olive Drab with (maybe) an disruptive pattern in “Light Mud”

Preparing to this modell project, I would like to ask if someone can help me with an answer about this area of the M4A2 upper hull:



I have studied in the "Armor PhotoGallery, M4A2 Sherman part 1" and even in "Military Vehicle Workshop, MV-21 M4A2 (75mm) Sherman", every available picture, but cannot identify if there is a weld seam in the red marked area or not.
Neither Tasca, nor Dragon have a weld seam there, so according to this, it has to be a bended steel plate.

Thanks in advance,
Erich

Hi Erich,

I believe that edge is part of a large bent plate, so no weld seam is needed where indicated. However, Tasca did miss the weld where the front plate attaches to the sides! I added it from 0.010" plastic rod on my own Sherman III build, "painting" it in liquid glue and lightly squasking it flat with the end of a paint brush handle.



Hope this helps!

Tom

Erich: That indeed IS a weld seam and an oversight by Tasca and Dragon. Here's proof for you on this deteriorating M4A2 hull (the welding beads' alloy doesn't rust like the armor plate so you can see all the welds)

Nice shot Roy, worth a thousand words. Outta here, Mike sends . . .

I think it depends on who manufactured the M4A2 and the method of manufacture. The Puckapunyal example has this as a welded in plate with a bend but not as per your photo. The plate extends to the glacis. . It has the fabricated splash ring as well.

Cheers
Al

Ahhh... good one Al! That's good info to know!

1 st Thanks all of for your very helpfull replies.

Roy, its exact the pic I was looking for.

Tom, Thanks for the Tasca advice. I even have realized the missing side seam on the front armour plate. Even the visible front plate edges needs some rework on the Tasca, to simulate the cutted surface.

Al, Thanks for your picture, even if it makes (Sherman) life a bit more confusing as it was till now for me.

So finally it seems that their are 2 versions for this top plate on the upper hull, one made from single plates, welded together and one as single plate and bended in an angle.
In the "Military Vehicle Workshop, MV-21 M4A2 (75mm) Sherman" is a diagramm of the plates for the lower and upper hull, with marked weld seams, but their is even no weld seam shown on this specific area. But I was not sure if this diagramm is precise, so I started the question here.

As Al points out, probably it depends on the manufacturer of the hull parts, if their has to be a weld seam or not.
So as (Sherman)Novice, now I can "gamble" which version to use, because its (in my oppinion) nearly impossible to identify this seam (or no seam) on pictures of specific tanks used for a model base.

Erich

It is quite possible that there were more than 2 differing version of this plate if the early variant glacis plates are any guide with many variations of how the glacis was assembled. The example I have shown is Pullman built M4A2 from 42 and it has the cast splash guard assemblies and not the fabricated or welded example as in Roys photo.
Shermans had numerous little diffrences between the manufacturers with some parts welded and some other manufacturers doing those parts as castings.
It really is a bit of a minefield and I feel sorry for the manufacturers who get it wrong at times.
DML and TASCA may well have got it right for the manufacturer they depict. There is every chance though that they got it wrong. Tascas 35-018 has a glacis and cast splash ring like the Puckapunyal (Pullman) example. I am a huge fan of the Tasca and the DML SHerman III's although if I had my choice it would be the tascas.
Cheers
Al
Cheers

Gentleman,

I am just in the building process of my first Sherman.
The actuall status is this one:













But I would like to stress you again by helping for the possible formation of my model copy



I have in the meantime received and studied the “The New Breed” from Dennis Oliver and Mike Starmer and even “Images of War, Sherman Tank” from Gavin Birch, for some more infos.

According to these, Sherman equipped units around 26.12.1942, in the area of the “Marble Arch” (or even known as “Arco dei Fileni”), has been:

2nd Armoured Brigade (Queen´s Bays, 9th Queen´s Royal Lancers, 10 th Royal Hussars)
4th (Light) Armoured Brigade (Royal Scots Greys, 4th Queens´s Own Hussars and C Squadron of 8th Kings´s Royal Hussars)
8th Armoured Brigade (3rd RTR, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire Yeo´s )

Note: 9th and 22nd AB has been returned to Egypt for rest and refitting, long before Christmas.

My first idea was to say this Sherman is from the 2nd AB, 9th Queen´s Royal Lancers, as even some of you mentioned too.
But all of the 2nd AB squadrons have used squadron signs on the turrets, which my poto-model don’t show. Maybe my Sherman could be a just arrived replacement vehicle to compensate losses, yet without squadron markings, but
as there is clearly visible a (covered by the censor) Formation and AOS sign on the front left fender, plus the chalked XMAS greetings, I cannot believe that their was no time for the crew to add even a Squadron sign, if this unit would have used one.

In Gavin Birch, “Images of War, Sherman Tank”, on page 51, there is even shown this tank, with (probably ?) his crew in front. One soldier wears a clearly visible bright (Silver ?) Rhomboid on the left shoulder strap, so I assume it’s a 2nd Lieutenant and a bright rectangular (?) cap badge.
Even as my knowledge of British cap badges is in fact not existing, I will try to say this is neither a 2nd AB ones, nor a RTR cap badge.
So according to this, as possible units would stay: Royal Scots Greys, 4th Queens´s Own Hussars, C Squadron 8th Kings´s Royal Hussars and Nottinghamshire Yeomanry
But it seems that even this units has used squadron signs on the turret.

Any idea ?

Thanks in advance, Erich

Hi Erich,

Looks really good! can you tell me what you used to make the welding's around the lifting eyes and headlights?

Thanks,

Marcel

Hi Marcel,

Was made by Miliput, following the excellent tutorial by Lee Loyd, here in Armorama, https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/220&page=1

Erich

Thanks Erich,

That looks nice and a lot better than the stretched sprue welds I tried to make.
I will try it on my next Sherman build.

Thanks,

Marcel