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Help with Stuart III NWE Markings Please!
Dangeroo
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 02:59 AM UTC
Hi all!

I'm working on an overhaul of an M3A1 Stuart / Stuart III. I found this pic in Concord's US Light Tanks at War 1941 - 45 on p. 61 and want to mark my vehicle accrdingly. Now all the caption says is that it's from the British 2nd Army passing GIs from US 9th Army near Geilenkirchen and that at this stage the Stuart was only used in recon units.



My question is, does anyone have any more info on the particular unit and markings? Would the Recce AoS and 2nd Army badge be possible or complete fantasy? My thinking behind this marking possibility would be a recon unit attached directly to the 2nd Army.

Unfortunately I have no general overview on British units and marking in my library so any help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!
Stefan
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 10:49 AM UTC
Hi Stefan,
Almost all Armoured Regiments had a recce troop as part of their HQ Sqn and many of those used Stuarts, so it could be from almost any one of them.

The chances of finding out exactly which unit that Stuart belongs to are fairly slim but I doubt it's a directly attached 2nd Army asset.

My suggestion is select a unit from here:
ordersofbattle.com (follow the subordinate links as you see fit).
Look for the markings here:
ArmouredAcorn
and go for it, remembering to mark it as HQ Sqn with the diamond.


EDIT. Apparently the 4/7th RDG were involved in the Battle for Geilenkirchen so it would make sense for it to be one of theirs.
Operation Clipper
Dangeroo
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2011 - 07:47 AM UTC
Thank you Ken, much obliged! Very useful links that I have taken into my link collection.

Cheers!
Stefan
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:59 PM UTC
Actually, I weould say that the chance that this vehicle is from an actual Recce Regiment or the recce troop from a normal Armoured Reg't are almost nil.

By 1944/45 there were officially no M3A1s left in Brit recce units, all of them having been replaced by M3A3s in 1943 and then by M5A1s in late 44. Any Stuart IIIs left in service, like this one, were almost always part of a unit that wasn't supposed to have tanks at all, doing secondary duties. This tank could well be an OP tank for a Field Reg't or the commander's charger for an support or sapper reg't or simply an armoured ammunition carrier for a division. These tanks were picked up the from a depot when the Stuart IIIs were going out of service or when one unit left an area leaving tanks in local repair depots.

The one place where you could almost guarantee they wouldn't be is in a line recce unit as these units needed a common maintenance practices for maximum efficiency and the radial engine of the Stuart III would be a significant hassle to a fast moving recce units. Less combat critical tasks were not so sensitive to maintenance and the value of an unexpected armoured vehicle could offset the extra hassles.

Just some thoughts.

Paul
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 12:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually, I weould say that the chance that this vehicle is from an actual Recce Regiment or the recce troop from a normal Armoured Reg't are almost nil.

By 1944/45 there were officially no M3A1s left in Brit recce units, all of them having been replaced by M3A3s in 1943 and then by M5A1s in late 44. Any Stuart IIIs left in service, like this one, were almost always part of a unit that wasn't supposed to have tanks at all, doing secondary duties. This tank could well be an OP tank for a Field Reg't or the commander's charger for an support or sapper reg't or simply an armoured ammunition carrier for a division. These tanks were picked up the from a depot when the Stuart IIIs were going out of service or when one unit left an area leaving tanks in local repair depots.

The one place where you could almost guarantee they wouldn't be is in a line recce unit as these units needed a common maintenance practices for maximum efficiency and the radial engine of the Stuart III would be a significant hassle to a fast moving recce units. Less combat critical tasks were not so sensitive to maintenance and the value of an unexpected armoured vehicle could offset the extra hassles.

Just some thoughts.

Paul


An interesting theory but there are many pics of 33 AB M3A1's in Normandy and as late as Arnhem so the theory isn't entirely encompassing. I'm pretty sure I have a few shots in the collection of Winter clad M3A1'sin Holland with 8 AB who incidently 4/7 QDG belonged to.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 02:23 AM UTC
Al,

I'd really like to see those photos. I don't deny that the Stuart IIIs would be within the Armoured Brigades, but I'll bet they aren't part of the regular recce troops or regiments. Brigade officers & the like loved having tanks to putz around in.

Still, I could be wrong, but I'd still love to see those photos.

Paul
bydand
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 03:59 AM UTC
The Sherewood Rangers Yeomanry had stuarts at Gilenkirchen and worked with the US 84th Div (Railsplitters) so I recon you could get away with an 8th Armoured Brigade vehicle (foxes head) with 996 on the TAC sign, however, I was under the impression that they had turretless Stuarts. If you can wait until the weekend I've got a club meeting (Notts MAFVA) and one of the members works at the the SRY museum and I'll ask him. where is the picture from? ( I mean who is credited with it) and is there any chance of enlarging the cap badges? as on that grainy scan it could be SRY

Craig
Dangeroo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:20 AM UTC
Thanks for all the valuable input guys! It seems to me that it would be logical for them not to be standard equipment, much like American towed TD units using M10s from units that had transited to the M18 or M36 (IIRC). Maybe even replacements for later mark Stuarts lost?

Al, I would also be interested in any more photos you could show, one can never have enough!

Craig, while doing research with the links Ken provided I stumbled on the SRY as well and took note of their markings. I already have the fox from the old Tamiya Matilda and will have to find a do-it-yourself solution for the red square with the numbers. In any case, any info you can get would be very much appreciated. I won't get to decalling before next week anyway.

As for the pic, I'm afraid that's about as big as I can get it without it being too grainy. What you see is already much enlarged from the original. The stuart in the book would be about 2.5 cm high. By the way, there is a second one following this one in the picture, but no marking s are apparent on it.

One more question: The diamond for HQ, what color would it have? Red, blue or yellow?
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 01:06 PM UTC
Some that were easily found in the collection:

This is also pictured in Market Garden Then and Now and was the subject of a very interesting thread om ML about three years ago. At the time it was identified as the advance elements of the Sherwood Rangers meeting with US Paras:


others from Briti Pathe and also discussed on ML in the past:
27AB Staffordshire Yeomanry

33AB


Also check page 67 of British tanks in Normandy which has a whole tp of them from 31 Tk Bde (A churchill unit) IWM B6815

Also from the same source a 144 RAC Stuart III on page 71 IWM 6748.


There are a number in British Pathe and the IWM collection:
B 6659
REFERENCE NUMBER 33 AB Caen (single with advancing tanks)

B 7560
REFERENCE NUMBER Unknown Unit (a whole tp) Escoville Op Goodwood 18 Jul 44

B 9634
REFERENCE NUMBER Unknown Tp entering Gace 23 Aug 44

B 11111
REFERENCE NUMBER 34th Armoured Brigade crossing a Bailey bridge over the Antwerp-Turnhout canal at Ryckevorsel during the attack north of Antwerp, 22 October 1944. (A whole tp)

From Photos it appears that the ARMD Divs got the M5's mainly, the Sherman equipped Bdes got the M3A3 and M3A1 and the Churchill bdes have a lot of the older M3A1. This is just a general observation however

Cheers
Al
bydand
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 09:28 PM UTC
stefan,

Is the fox red or brown? in NWE it was red. Accurate armour did/do a set of decals of british armoured brigades.

I've just searched for the thread Al referes to. Go to ML and type Sherewood Rangers yeomanry into the Allied armour DG it's on page 4, there is also a picture from front of the above Stuart. the 996 looks to be hand painted on in whitewash (which would make life easier) interestingly it looks like there's a faded 993 on the transmission bulge. I'll try and find out who 993 was during the day.

Clearly then the SRY did have turreted stuarts, an up comming project then.

Craig
bydand
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 09:57 PM UTC
Found it, according to some chap called Bowie 993 is 8AB so I would surmise that this is an Ex Btn HQ vehicle taken over by the SRY. for background try and get hold of 'By tank into Normandy' by Stuart Hills. Not a stuart but my SRY Shermie with some information about operation 'Clipper'
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=44970&p=1

Craig
Dangeroo
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Posted: Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 08:00 AM UTC
Thanks guys, you were of great help!

Craig, of course the fox is brown... Murphy strikes again... I was hoping not to have to buy new decals so I will have to see what to do. Thanks also for the link.

Cheers!
Stefan
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 12:27 PM UTC
Stefan, one question not answered is the colour of the HQ Sqn diamond.

It all depends on the unit you decide to do. In general, the colour depends on the unit's seniority in the Brigade - Red, then Yellow, then Blue.
If the unit is Brigade Recce or aligned otherwise such as a Div or Corps unit then it would be white.

Of course, it might not have carried it altogether. Check your references.
bydand
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 - 02:23 AM UTC
Stefan,

Accurate Armour have then back in stock
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=6&subcategory=47&product=380
Daft question but what is the kit? I've just been through the spares box and am covered for this , for the pictures Al's posted (figures, base etc.) apart from the tank.

Cheers

Craig
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 - 11:29 AM UTC
Caraig, the kit would be the Academy M3A1. A much maligned kit due to undersized running gear and a few other issues. If you can find the AFV Club M3 Running gear that fixes the most obvious problem. If you are not accuracy obsessed this builds int oa great looking kit with a basic interior.
CHeers
Al
Dangeroo
#023
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 - 07:00 PM UTC
Al pretty much covers it. One more thing: the kit is externally an M3. Just leave off the rivets on the side sponsons an close the sponson MG ports.

Cheers!
Stefan
bydand
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 - 09:15 PM UTC
Al, Stefan,

Lucky have both AFV and Accadmy in stock, which is best? PMMS rates AFV but I've just done the Accadamy M10 and really liked it..

Cheers

Craig
Dangeroo
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:18 PM UTC
Unfortunately it's not a question of chosing the better kit. For an M3A1 the only game in town (apart from the ancient Tamiya kit) is the Academy one. AFV Club only have the M3A3 but its suspension is much better and can be used on the Academy kit. Don't know if it's sold separately but I think so.

Cheers!
Stefan
bydand
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 08:49 PM UTC
Stefan,

Steve didn't go on saturday so I'm not able to give any more information at the moment, Picked up the Acadamy kit yesterday for tyhe same price as Luckym actually I can feel a quick build comming on in between a Stryker and an Archer.

Cheers

Craig
Dangeroo
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Posted: Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 08:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Is the fox red or brown? in NWE it was red. Accurate armour did/do a set of decals of british armoured brigades.


Craig, I did some further research on the subject. On the matter quoted above, are you sure about this? Armoredacorn shows exactly the opposite: Red on black until November 1942 and from then on brown on yellow. Do you have any more info on the subject?

Cheers!
Stefan

PS: Any progress on your Stuart yet?
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 09:29 AM UTC
Stefan, the red on black foxes mask is the 10 Armd Div sign that 8 Armd Bde wore when they were under the command of that formation (up until Oct/Nov '42, when they became an independent brigade for El Alamein 2).

The brown on yellow foxes mask was 8 Armd Bde's own formation sign and was used after that time when they were not u/c another division. It's the one you should use on 8 Armd Bde vehicles in NWE.
bydand
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Posted: Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 10:15 PM UTC
Stefan.

My information is from the SRY museum, private photo's I've seen of the recent restoration of 'Robin Hood'. Threads on ML and various other bits on the web. Accurate Armour's and Bison Decals both have the Fox's head in red in NWE. Several comments I've seen recently raise doubts about Armoured Acorn's accuracy. I can't say anthing about it as I can't open PDF's on this computer.

Like Ken says red on black is the 10th Armoured. When 8th AB was formed as an independent it was changed to brown on yellow, then for the invasion of Europe changed again to red on yellow.

As an aside there was some debate about 'Akilla' being a firefly or an Achilles and this lead Bison to change their instructions to show it as a Shereman 111, which it clearly is.

My M3A1 is comming on but I'm having trouble with a crew. Those hatches are rather small.

Craig
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 11:47 PM UTC
Another resource for you Stefan:
British Formation Signs

Both 8 Armd Bde versions are shown there too with the explanation that the simpler one was more commonly used on vehicles. Looking at it you can see that it certainly would be far easier to turn into a stencil than the "letterhead" version on the right.
bydand
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Posted: Monday, May 30, 2011 - 01:43 AM UTC
Hi Ken,

What about linking that debate on another site? That will totally confuse everyone

Craig
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Monday, May 30, 2011 - 06:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Ken,

What about linking that debate on another site? That will totally confuse everyone

Craig



Which one's that then Craig?
 _GOTOTOP