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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Undercoat for Panzer IV Ausf D
Rampenfest
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California, United States
Joined: April 28, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 04:40 AM UTC
Greetings!

I would like to know what colour should I put under my grey basecoat for my Panzer IV Ausf D. I would like to chip at the paintjob, but I don't know what colour should be under the chipped grey paint. Would it be silver? Or just a dull steel colour much like Tamiya's gun metal paint? Thanks. Cheers!

-Joe
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 04:59 AM UTC
Hi Joe

Although i'm not a Panzer expert, as far as I know German ww2 tanks were painted in "Red oxide primer" before receiving the camo schemes

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/88209

http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/p/18316/174177.aspx

http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/p/8598/69366.aspx

Anyway i'm sure that you can met here on the site someone more expert than me that will be able to help you in a better way

cheers
collin26
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 05:04 AM UTC
Well, I am far from an expert but here is my 2 cents.
I would suggest a dark steel grey as well as a red oxide primer.
In this way your chip will show both. Some chips could be dorwn to the steel while other chips and scrathes will only go as deep as the primer. Using a lighter tone of your camo colors for scratches will go a long way to emphasising the depth of the chips that go down to the primer or steel.
A very small amount of graphite will help add a metal look to the areas exposed down to the steel.
I hope you will post some pics when this one gets moving. Sounds like an interesting project!
Rampenfest
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 06:23 AM UTC
To me, basecoat is the main colour of the tank. So in my case, the Panzer's grey paint scheme. I put down I underlayer (which will be red oxide) and then spray on my base coat (panzer grey) After that dries I take an exacto knive and "chip" away at the basecoat (grey) to expose the underlayer (red oxide) and if I want a deeper chip, I go all the way to the plastic and then use graphite to colour the plastic. Hope this helps. Thanks. And Lain, I shall post pictures. Look for them in the "Constructive Feedback" section

-Joe
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 07:06 AM UTC
Hi

It might be worth checking out but I seem to remember reading somewhere, maybe over on Missing Lynx, that the Dark Grey the Germans used was a special type of paint that required no separate priming, so would be applied to the hull direct.

Don't believe it was the same for the colours they used after that in the later war years.

Alan
Krieg-Hammer
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 09:08 AM UTC
With the model I am building just now, I plan to do chipping using the salt method. I have sprayed a light grey primer all over the tank. I have preshaded it with black and the areas where I will be applying some salt grain. After the salt grain is in place, I'll spray the base coat in a dark yellow (dunkel gelb). Once the paint has had 2 days or so to cure, I'll pick the salt grains off with a tooth pick....... Hopefully this will leave a nice chipped finish.
collin26
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 12:49 PM UTC
Brian,
I have NEVER tried to actually chip a paint surface but I can't imagine that it would work out well.
I was thinking of using hairspray or salt. I am sorry I failed to say this.
Hairspray would help you to achieve the the finish you are looking for.
drumthumper
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 01:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

With the model I am building just now, I plan to do chipping using the salt method. I have sprayed a light grey primer all over the tank. I have preshaded it with black and the areas where I will be applying some salt grain. After the salt grain is in place, I'll spray the base coat in a dark yellow (dunkel gelb). Once the paint has had 2 days or so to cure, I'll pick the salt grains off with a tooth pick....... Hopefully this will leave a nice chipped finish.



Rob,
I'd be careful using the salt method as I think the effect will be way too overstated. I use that technique on occasion for really large areas of loss, but for just everday wear-and-tear Ithink it might be a little heavy. Instead, maybe a fine brush, steady hand and water-base paint is a better option? BTW, I think the Germans primed just about everything, so Vallejo Cavalry Brown (it's red - really) is a good match for the Tabasco-coloured primer they used.

Kirchoff
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 07:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

To me, basecoat is the main colour of the tank. So in my case, the Panzer's grey paint scheme. I put down I underlayer (which will be red oxide) and then spray on my base coat (panzer grey) After that dries I take an exacto knive and "chip" away at the basecoat (grey) to expose the underlayer (red oxide) and if I want a deeper chip, I go all the way to the plastic and then use graphite to colour the plastic. Hope this helps. Thanks. And Lain, I shall post pictures. Look for them in the "Constructive Feedback" section



That's a techique usually adopted by some aircraft modellers to depict the wing root damages.In my opinion it couldn't be effective for 1/35 scale.
Aircraft modellers usually have to chip and damage just some little areas, tank modellers have to represent a diffused wear on the whole vehicle.(as we can see in Brian pic). Adopting this method in 1/35 scale would mean hitting the tank with a knife at least a milion of times...It would be extremely boring but aside that, I think it would be hard to represent a random chip dispostion this way. Moreover using the knife it would be hard to ripp off just the Panzer gray coat...At 99% you'll risk to unearth the bare plastic...Of course, you can fix this flaws with paints...but It doesn't make sense in my opinion taking this process and using the paint for the chips eventually...


Just my two cents anyway

cheers
Rampenfest
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 06:31 AM UTC
Allrighty, thanks for all your info guys. I have two concerns though: 1) Why isn't the hairspray technique working in the slightest if I am following the instructions? Does the brand of hairspray matter? 2) If all German tanks were "primed" with red oxide, why is that whenever I see chipped tanks, they are usually grey or silver chips? Such as these: http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/sdkfz223mb_1.html

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/skdfz_mbannerman.html

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/panzeriiilhh_1.html

I don't doubt the fact that they are red oxide primed, I'm just wondering why the chips aren't the red oxide colour but instead grey. Thanks.

-Joe
Krieg-Hammer
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 07:06 AM UTC
A layer of laquer maybe?
Rampenfest
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 08:06 AM UTC
Do I need to drench the model in hairspray? Because last time I gave it a pretty thick coat, but not like something super heavy.
drumthumper
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 09:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If all German tanks were "primed" with red oxide, why is that whenever I see chipped tanks, they are usually grey or silver chips? I don't doubt the fact that they are red oxide primed, I'm just wondering why the chips aren't the red oxide colour but instead grey. Thanks.
-Joe



Joe, that's simple ... it's because you are not looking at real tanks, you are seeing another modelers rendition of what he THINKS a real tank looks like. We tend to resist bucking convention, and when the masses paint scratches with grey or brown, we all do - regardless of whether it's correct. Plus, actual vehicles rarely chip and scratch as easily as we modelers would make it seem. It's more of an artistic thing and essentially a matter of personal taste.

Kirchoff
Rampenfest
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 10:02 AM UTC
Okay, thanks. Would it be accurate to maybe drybrush a dull silver on some of the raised parts like the bolts and some of the raised metal grips and other bits?
drumthumper
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 02:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Would it be accurate to maybe drybrush a dull silver on some of the raised parts like the bolts and some of the raised metal grips and other bits?



Worn metal is a certainty when dealing with armor ... just take it easy. Pencil lead (graphite) is an excellent medium to simulate worn steel. It's cheap, the right color and gives the right amount of sheen. I would avoid silver per se. I use both graphite and an acrylic paint from Games Workshop called Chainmail for raw edges of steel roadwheels and sprocker teeth.

Kirchoff
lukiftian
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Posted: Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Greetings!

I would like to know what colour should I put under my grey basecoat for my Panzer IV Ausf D. I would like to chip at the paintjob, but I don't know what colour should be under the chipped grey paint. Would it be silver? Or just a dull steel colour much like Tamiya's gun metal paint? Thanks. Cheers!

-Joe



At the point of the war in which the Panzer IVD was used these tanks were well cared for and the crews and their COs would never stand for chipped paint or rust showing on their vehicles.
It would be more likely that there would be SMALL patches of Schwartzgrau on the vehicle where crews had overpainted chips and scratches. So, basically what you would be looking for is darker patches of the same body color.

The areas you should paint red primer are the belly of the tank and between the road wheels.
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