On Page 60 of British Sherman Tanks (Dennis Oliver - Concord Publications) There is a photo of what is described as a Sherman Firefly IC Hybrid - Italy 1945 with what looks like a high bustle turret with oval loader's hatch and the late US all round vision cupola (I'm going by the silhouette of the lid (clearly a one piece lid) and what appears to be a vision block in the cupola).
All sources I have consulted have said that Fireflys NEVER had such a cupola.
My question is: Is this a Firefly IC Hybrid or are we looking at the back of a Sherman IB 105mm as used by certain units in Italy?
I'd be interested if someone could put things straight on this one as with all that lovely stowage, this would be a great subject to model.
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Sherman Firefly IC Hybrid Cupola Conundrum
simon2301
Joined: January 02, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 12:31 AM UTC
barkingdigger
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:27 AM UTC
I don't know the photo, so cannot say if it was mis-labelled. Identification from the rear is a challenge - can you see if it has two boxes attached to the bustle? (Radio box and stowage?) Not all Fireflies had the second box, but I believe all of them had the radio box.
I thought they were all low-bustle turrets with the split TC hatch and British-fitted loader's hatch, but that's just begging for somebody to prove me wrong (again!)...
Tom
I thought they were all low-bustle turrets with the split TC hatch and British-fitted loader's hatch, but that's just begging for somebody to prove me wrong (again!)...
Tom
chefchris
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:40 AM UTC
Late fireflys did indeed have the all around vision cupola. Some also have the churchill ones.... rare but not impossible. It seems more common on the m4s.
Totalize
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:47 AM UTC
Simon,
I have this book as well. in looking at the picture it could be a Firefly from the standpoint that (according to Mark Hayward in his book Firefly) some Firefly's were retrofitted with the all round vision cupola. However, on the other hand I have not seen any pictures of IC's or IC Hybrids with the IB type storage rack and spare track holders on the rear. Same goes for American issued M4 Composites.
See Mike Canaday's site with pictures of M4 composites:
http://mmcalc.tripod.com/Shermans/ETO_Composites.html
So from my perspective I would say this is actually a IB given the commonality of it versus a firefly with a retrofitted all round vision cupola. Sorry it's not a definitive answer only a best guess given the limited perspective afforded by the picture.
David.
I have this book as well. in looking at the picture it could be a Firefly from the standpoint that (according to Mark Hayward in his book Firefly) some Firefly's were retrofitted with the all round vision cupola. However, on the other hand I have not seen any pictures of IC's or IC Hybrids with the IB type storage rack and spare track holders on the rear. Same goes for American issued M4 Composites.
See Mike Canaday's site with pictures of M4 composites:
http://mmcalc.tripod.com/Shermans/ETO_Composites.html
So from my perspective I would say this is actually a IB given the commonality of it versus a firefly with a retrofitted all round vision cupola. Sorry it's not a definitive answer only a best guess given the limited perspective afforded by the picture.
David.
Totalize
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 02:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know the photo, so cannot say if it was mis-labelled. Identification from the rear is a challenge - can you see if it has two boxes attached to the bustle? (Radio box and stowage?) Not all Fireflies had the second box, but I believe all of them had the radio box.
I thought they were all low-bustle turrets with the split TC hatch and British-fitted loader's hatch, but that's just begging for somebody to prove me wrong (again!)...
Tom
Tom, I am no expert but based on my research IC Hybrids did indeed have the high bustle turret and oval loader's hatch as well. In fact there is a picture of one in Haywards Firefly book.
David.
simon2301
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 04:38 AM UTC
Hi David.
I tend to agree with you about it being a IB although it does have what appears to be a Firefly radio box attached to the bustle, given that it has a sharp 90 degree corner. Also, looking along the side there is some evidence that the front end is that of a composite M4 hull given the sudden drop in angle but as you say it is difficult to say for sure given the perspective of the photo. I am aware that the high bustle turret with oval hatch was used - there is a great top view of a Firefly IC Hybrid in Germany in the same book - but only with the normal split commander's hatch
For those wishing to model a Sherman IC (not hybrid) with a Churchill/Comet cupola, the Polish IC 'Rycerz' of 1st Krechowiecki Lancers Regiment is one example to look out for.
This is an odd one because of the cupola and the spare track and shelf fittings on the rear of the hull and intrigues me. It certainly would be a different and unusual Firefly to model but to do so I would have to be 100% sure that we are looking at a IC Hybrid.
By the way I have Hayward's book but could not find the bit about retro fitting of late US cupolas.
Simon
I tend to agree with you about it being a IB although it does have what appears to be a Firefly radio box attached to the bustle, given that it has a sharp 90 degree corner. Also, looking along the side there is some evidence that the front end is that of a composite M4 hull given the sudden drop in angle but as you say it is difficult to say for sure given the perspective of the photo. I am aware that the high bustle turret with oval hatch was used - there is a great top view of a Firefly IC Hybrid in Germany in the same book - but only with the normal split commander's hatch
For those wishing to model a Sherman IC (not hybrid) with a Churchill/Comet cupola, the Polish IC 'Rycerz' of 1st Krechowiecki Lancers Regiment is one example to look out for.
This is an odd one because of the cupola and the spare track and shelf fittings on the rear of the hull and intrigues me. It certainly would be a different and unusual Firefly to model but to do so I would have to be 100% sure that we are looking at a IC Hybrid.
By the way I have Hayward's book but could not find the bit about retro fitting of late US cupolas.
Simon
simon2301
Joined: January 02, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 07:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Late fireflys did indeed have the all around vision cupola. Some also have the churchill ones.... rare but not impossible. It seems more common on the m4s.
Got any photos, Chris?
Totalize
Joined: February 04, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 09:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi David.
I tend to agree with you about it being a IB although it does have what appears to be a Firefly radio box attached to the bustle, given that it has a sharp 90 degree corner. Also, looking along the side there is some evidence that the front end is that of a composite M4 hull given the sudden drop in angle but as you say it is difficult to say for sure given the perspective of the photo. I am aware that the high bustle turret with oval hatch was used - there is a great top view of a Firefly IC Hybrid in Germany in the same book - but only with the normal split commander's hatch
For those wishing to model a Sherman IC (not hybrid) with a Churchill/Comet cupola, the Polish IC 'Rycerz' of 1st Krechowiecki Lancers Regiment is one example to look out for.
This is an odd one because of the cupola and the spare track and shelf fittings on the rear of the hull and intrigues me. It certainly would be a different and unusual Firefly to model but to do so I would have to be 100% sure that we are looking at a IC Hybrid.
By the way I have Hayward's book but could not find the bit about retro fitting of late US cupolas.
Simon
Hi Simon,
Please see Page 155 photo 127 regarding Hayward's comment about Operational firefly's having the retrofitted all round vision cupola.
Regards,
David.
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 10:07 AM UTC
I'll go further with this discussion: I say unequivocally that the tank in question is a Sherman IIB. Why? The evidence is the barrel cleaning rod holder on the left edge of the engine deck. See that black rectangle and the two black squares atop of it in Olivier's photo? That's the forward section of the rod holder -- a feature ONLY found on Howitzer tanks.
Totalize
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 10:41 AM UTC
Roy,
Good catch but do you mean a Sherman IB? the picture you posted has the rear welded profile of an M4 not the cast armour one of an M4A1 which I believe would be a Sherman II the IIB being the Howitzer version?
Good catch but do you mean a Sherman IB? the picture you posted has the rear welded profile of an M4 not the cast armour one of an M4A1 which I believe would be a Sherman II the IIB being the Howitzer version?
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 11:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I tend to agree with you about it being a IB although it does have what appears to be a Firefly radio box attached to the bustle, given that it has a sharp 90 degree corner.
I'll take my lumps over the high-bustle turrets, but I thought most British Sherman types in NWE used rectangular turret stowage boxes with sharp 90-degree corners - only the Firefly needed the armoured radio box, and often they had the stowage box mounted to the back of the radio box. The Firefly radio box was longer front-to-back than the stowage box, but if viewed from the rear that might not be apparent. (And I know some of the round-edged boxes common on Crusaders were used on Shermans...)
Tom
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 12:20 PM UTC
Definately a 1 B and it was picked up in the final edit but too late to change before printing. As others have indicated it has no travel lock for the firefly and has the 105 cleaning rods.
Al Bowie
Al Bowie
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 04:02 PM UTC
David: you're right. I meant to say Sherman IB. I posted the picture as an example of the cleaning rod stowage rack only.
simon2301
Joined: January 02, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 05:40 AM UTC
Thank you everyone for all of your comments and expert opinions, knowledge and advice. My modelling activities will have to be put on hold for now as today I went and broke my right elbow - so immobilised in plaster for 6 weeks. However when I return I can build my IC in complete confidence knowing not to put an all round vision cupola onto it. And the IB I have just built can be the recipient of all that lovely stowage.
Now has anybody got any tips on how to model with one hand - the wrong one worst luck?
Now has anybody got any tips on how to model with one hand - the wrong one worst luck?
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
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Posted: Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 05:45 AM UTC
Simon, sorry to hear it! Looks like you've got some time for research...
Tom
Tom
simon2301
Joined: January 02, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 06:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Simon, sorry to hear it! Looks like you've got some time for research...
Tom
Thanks Tom. There'll be no excuses for getting the next one wrong then with all that research !!!! All the best.
Simon
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