Hi, I am working on a 1/35th Hetzer. I know there is something like a dappling texture for WWII tanks due to using cast and sheet metal,
The technical terms eludes me, can someone shed some light? Thanks
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Hetzer cast/sheet armor
Wahaha
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Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:34 PM UTC
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 09:57 PM UTC
Ola Fabian
There are several ways of recreating the effects that you are looking for.
For cast iron parts like the gun mantlet I usually dilute some Tamiya Putty from the tube with plastic cement and I stipple this in the part with a really cheap stiff brush. This gives a nice cast iron structure.
For the rolled steel sheet metal that often was used for the hulls I usually pit the surface a bit with my dremel motortool and then smear putty on it. Quite thin so it really looks like an irregular layer which I then give a sanding as well to make it very thin.
Basically check this shot from a really well preserved SdKfz 250. The metal surface is quite rough
Hope this explanation helps you a bit
Greetz
Robert Blokker
There are several ways of recreating the effects that you are looking for.
For cast iron parts like the gun mantlet I usually dilute some Tamiya Putty from the tube with plastic cement and I stipple this in the part with a really cheap stiff brush. This gives a nice cast iron structure.
For the rolled steel sheet metal that often was used for the hulls I usually pit the surface a bit with my dremel motortool and then smear putty on it. Quite thin so it really looks like an irregular layer which I then give a sanding as well to make it very thin.
Basically check this shot from a really well preserved SdKfz 250. The metal surface is quite rough
Hope this explanation helps you a bit
Greetz
Robert Blokker
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 10:05 PM UTC
I'll say thanks to ya for that Robert 
thats given me something very cool to try ,,been thinking the same sort of thing as of late ..excellent cheers for that mate
thats given me something very cool to try ,,been thinking the same sort of thing as of late ..excellent cheers for that mate 
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 11:25 PM UTC
Ola Phill
No problem. It is a really easy method and it gives nice results.
Got some other pics from a H39 I'm working on where I did this. It is is a cast iron hull but the way of work is pretty similar to the rolled metal texture from the German tanks
Without primer you can see the pitted texture created with the motortool and the putty
And the endresult in primer
No problem. It is a really easy method and it gives nice results.
Got some other pics from a H39 I'm working on where I did this. It is is a cast iron hull but the way of work is pretty similar to the rolled metal texture from the German tanks
Without primer you can see the pitted texture created with the motortool and the putty
And the endresult in primer
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 11:44 PM UTC
Dank U zeer Robert ..ok i dont speck your lingo but hell its the politest way i can say thanks 
I have the prefect project in mind for this technique of yours ,,a model i am building for the What if Campaign ..you can see the mutant there ,,ultra modern and pretty damn big and i was looking for something to sort out the armour on the sides of the track pods ,,Robert ol mate this will be prefect and the customer will be over joyed
Phill
Right off to bed now ,,been up 26 hours ..so night time lol ,,i'll explain later
..ok i dont speck your lingo but hell its the politest way i can say thanks I have the prefect project in mind for this technique of yours ,,a model i am building for the What if Campaign ..you can see the mutant there
,,ultra modern and pretty damn big and i was looking for something to sort out the armour on the sides of the track pods ,,Robert ol mate this will be prefect and the customer will be over joyed Phill
Right off to bed now ,,been up 26 hours ..so night time lol ,,i'll explain later
Wahaha
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Posted: Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 02:36 AM UTC
Thanks for the info Robert, just curious, is there a technical term in metallurgy for that kind of effect?
Rouse713
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Posted: Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 03:14 AM UTC
The surface finish is really a product of how the part was manufactured. Its not that the steel couldn't be smooth, it is just how it was processed. I am sure you have seen even plastic injection molds with sufrace defects on very large parts. Now picture that on a very very large (x35 if we are talking 1/35) part. To the manufacturers during the war, surface finishes on castings (if in an unimportant area) were most likely of minimal concern.
For large cast parts, I will smear MR.SURFACER around with a brush continuously until it is dry. I think this is how most guys do their sherman turrets.
Remember, always check references to see what typical surfaces looked like.
For large cast parts, I will smear MR.SURFACER around with a brush continuously until it is dry. I think this is how most guys do their sherman turrets.
Remember, always check references to see what typical surfaces looked like.
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 03:40 AM UTC
@ Phill
That sentence was perfect polite Dutch mate. Well done. And your idea for the what if campaign sounds really neat. Looking forward to seeing that.
@ Fabian
I believe the term is called Cold Rolled steel. Don't ask me exactly how it works but I believe the irregular texture comes Panzer hulls
I agree with Mark that it is always a good idea to check references of the vehicle you are building. And you have the luck that I have a pretty extensive walkaround of a greatly restored and running Hetzer as well, both in and out. I have three pics here that show the casting texture on the Gun mantlet and a pic that shows the rolled steel texture of the hull.
More of that walkaround will be available online soon. I have to pull the pics through Photoshop first.
That sentence was perfect polite Dutch mate. Well done. And your idea for the what if campaign sounds really neat. Looking forward to seeing that.
@ Fabian
I believe the term is called Cold Rolled steel. Don't ask me exactly how it works but I believe the irregular texture comes Panzer hulls
I agree with Mark that it is always a good idea to check references of the vehicle you are building. And you have the luck that I have a pretty extensive walkaround of a greatly restored and running Hetzer as well, both in and out. I have three pics here that show the casting texture on the Gun mantlet and a pic that shows the rolled steel texture of the hull.
More of that walkaround will be available online soon. I have to pull the pics through Photoshop first.
Wahaha
Joined: July 14, 2010
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 05:16 PM UTC
cool, tried searching for reference images, my library does not stock any of these close up books, not to blast the current walk-around posted on this site for hetzers, am unable to pin down whether those effects appear on the wheels
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 07:18 PM UTC
Ola Fabian
Noi problem mate glad I can help out.. As for the wheels.. I can help you out there as well. The roadhweels, Idlers and Sprockets of the Hetzer were smooth metal. Not much in the way of textures. Check out the following pics of the same Hetzer
Reason for this is that the manufacture process of those parts is different from the rest of the tank. Often the wheels sprockets and Idlers were milled from big blocks of metal.
Noi problem mate glad I can help out.. As for the wheels.. I can help you out there as well. The roadhweels, Idlers and Sprockets of the Hetzer were smooth metal. Not much in the way of textures. Check out the following pics of the same Hetzer
Reason for this is that the manufacture process of those parts is different from the rest of the tank. Often the wheels sprockets and Idlers were milled from big blocks of metal.
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 07:58 PM UTC
Hey Fabian .... you will find the look your looking for on large cast pieces of armour or anything cast in a hurry .. the wheels like my Dutch mate Robert said are machined from billet steel ,,solid chunks of metal ..even tho the turrets on alot of WWII German tanks were welded the steel they welded together was cast first as plate then cut up and bob's your uncle a tank ..you will see the same affect on the US M4 Sherman and the British Churchill tanks to cause their turrets were cast ..now that Robert has told us both how to do it ..its time to give it a blast ..time to find a old tank
..you will see the same affect on the US M4 Sherman and the British Churchill tanks to cause their turrets were cast ..now that Robert has told us both how to do it ..its time to give it a blast ..time to find a old tank 
hofpig
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 08:51 PM UTC
Hi all
Now I know this is a bit off topic but here is a pic my old man took in a museum (either in poland or austria). i think it speacks for itself.
Paul
Now I know this is a bit off topic but here is a pic my old man took in a museum (either in poland or austria). i think it speacks for itself.
Paul
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:16 PM UTC
All i can say to that is OUCH!!!!! hell knock knock anybody
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:22 PM UTC
Nice picture
I believe that Hetzer can be found in the polish war museum in Warsaw.
I found another walkaround of the beastie online
Blown up Hetzer Walkaround
Looking at the damage I think it ran on a Mine which blew up the fueltank which in turn ripped up the tank even more. But it is an interesting museumpiece that's for sure
I believe that Hetzer can be found in the polish war museum in Warsaw.
I found another walkaround of the beastie online
Blown up Hetzer Walkaround
Looking at the damage I think it ran on a Mine which blew up the fueltank which in turn ripped up the tank even more. But it is an interesting museumpiece that's for sure
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:53 PM UTC
I know one thing for sure Robert .. it was a pretty new vehicle before it was made into FUBAR ,,,the road wheels have hardly a mark on them ,,the rubber looks nearly brand new ..one thing that has me thinking that it didnt run over a mine is the damage to the engine ..one thing i know very very well is engines and just take a close look at the damage ..3/4 of the head is gone ..you can see the connecting rods and the side of the block is damaged from where one of the head bolts has been torn out of the block .. the strange thing is that all the con rods still have the pins in them that held the pistons to the con rods ..means the pistons were blown apart as they are soft alloy compared to the con rods which are high grade steel ..but this part has me miffed ..the con rods dont look like they have been bent at all ..nothing ..that is so strange ..in alot of ways this whole wreck is strange ..you can't see a point of impact from anything ..from below or on the sides or top ..its like it was torn off ,,just removed with alot of power ..oh another thing about the mine idea Robert ..the lower hull is knackered for sure but theres no twisting or pushing up of the lower hull ..let ya one thing tho mate ..i would love to know what did happen cause theres no much left to give us any clear ideas 
PS I just spotted what looks like a entry or exit hole on the right hand side of the lower hull ..you can see it just under the guns breach .. i think something shot it in the ass area and continued straight out the other side ..would explain the damage to the engine too
PS I just spotted what looks like a entry or exit hole on the right hand side of the lower hull ..you can see it just under the guns breach .. i think something shot it in the ass area and continued straight out the other side ..would explain the damage to the engine too
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 01:54 AM UTC
The reason why I think it is destroyed by a mine is that the damages indicate it.
The picture that Paul posted shows this quite good. The hull section between the idler wheel and the returnroller is cracked and pushed inward and upward. The fender is pushed upward. Those two things happen only when a force comes from below the vehicle. It also explains the damage on the Engine. Picture 6 and 9 from the walkaround of this vehicle I linked shows that a bit of the Engine just under the head is missing. Probably shrapnel from the hull hit the engine and the head removing them.
It is also very possible that the shock from the mine detonated the Ammo hanging on the left hull side Which explains the fact that the roof and engine bay is missing and also the damages on the right side of the vehicle
The picture that Paul posted shows this quite good. The hull section between the idler wheel and the returnroller is cracked and pushed inward and upward. The fender is pushed upward. Those two things happen only when a force comes from below the vehicle. It also explains the damage on the Engine. Picture 6 and 9 from the walkaround of this vehicle I linked shows that a bit of the Engine just under the head is missing. Probably shrapnel from the hull hit the engine and the head removing them.
It is also very possible that the shock from the mine detonated the Ammo hanging on the left hull side Which explains the fact that the roof and engine bay is missing and also the damages on the right side of the vehicle
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 04:41 AM UTC
My experience tells me to work backwards. Go from the least damaged areas, to the most damaged areas.
In this case, the front and nearly entire right side of the Hetzer is relatively undamaged. The left rear, on the other hand is, well, gone.
The damage indicates to me a large blast occurred outside the vehicle under the sponson at the left rear. It was violent enough to remove suspension components and most telling, peel the sponson floor up and away. There was most likely a secondary explosion within the vehicle. This occurred on the left rear. Check out the great divot taken from the engine block.
Look at the Fuel? tank on the right wall adjacent to the engine. The side facing the engine is blown inwards. The fan shroud is also blown up and away.
I would love to see an overhead shot of the entire Hetzer.
I could go on and on but you get the idea
Phil, regarding the engine, we will never know just what happened to this from the moment of destruction to placement in the museum.
G
In this case, the front and nearly entire right side of the Hetzer is relatively undamaged. The left rear, on the other hand is, well, gone.
The damage indicates to me a large blast occurred outside the vehicle under the sponson at the left rear. It was violent enough to remove suspension components and most telling, peel the sponson floor up and away. There was most likely a secondary explosion within the vehicle. This occurred on the left rear. Check out the great divot taken from the engine block.
Look at the Fuel? tank on the right wall adjacent to the engine. The side facing the engine is blown inwards. The fan shroud is also blown up and away.
I would love to see an overhead shot of the entire Hetzer.
I could go on and on but you get the idea
Phil, regarding the engine, we will never know just what happened to this from the moment of destruction to placement in the museum.
G
Kharkov
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 05:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I know one thing for sure Robert .. it was a pretty new vehicle before it was made into FUBAR ,,,the road wheels have hardly a mark on them ,,the rubber looks nearly brand new ..one thing that has me thinking that it didnt run over a mine is the damage to the engine ..one thing i know very very well is engines and just take a close look at the damage ..3/4 of the head is gone ..you can see the connecting rods and the side of the block is damaged from where one of the head bolts has been torn out of the block .. the strange thing is that all the con rods still have the pins in them that held the pistons to the con rods ..means the pistons were blown apart as they are soft alloy compared to the con rods which are high grade steel ..but this part has me miffed ..the con rods dont look like they have been bent at all ..nothing ..that is so strange ..in alot of ways this whole wreck is strange ..you can't see a point of impact from anything ..from below or on the sides or top ..its like it was torn off ,,just removed with alot of power ..oh another thing about the mine idea Robert ..the lower hull is knackered for sure but theres no twisting or pushing up of the lower hull ..let ya one thing tho mate ..i would love to know what did happen cause theres no much left to give us any clear ideas
PS I just spotted what looks like a entry or exit hole on the right hand side of the lower hull ..you can see it just under the guns breach .. i think something shot it in the ass area and continued straight out the other side ..would explain the damage to the engine too
I tend to agree with this, I think a round from something went straight through it, and tore apart the engine on its way through.
The Hetzer was a tin can on wheels, cheap and fast production, a young child could pop it open with a spud gun, I think if it was mine damage the lower hull would be bent and twisted badly, but it does not show signs of that, it just has rips and tears like something went pop inside.
Just an opinion.
FAUST
#130
Joined: June 07, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 05:21 AM UTC
It's an intriguing beast that's for sure...
I tried to find out more about this Hetzer and I found this bit of text online about a Hetzer in the Polish Army Museum in Warsaw
Source http://preservedtanks.com/Types.aspx?TypeCategoryId=310&Select=1
I don't know if it's the same Hetzer they are talking about allthough it seems to match up pretty well. All including the Right idler which is indeed a 12 hole one
I tried to find out more about this Hetzer and I found this bit of text online about a Hetzer in the Polish Army Museum in Warsaw
Quoted Text
This Hetzer was recovered from a river in Poland in 1990/91. It is marked with the number 321154/167/17 and has been fitted with a muzzle-brake at some point. It is an early production model and its right hand idler has 12 holes. Its rear left hand side has been destroyed by a mine. (Source: R. Fleming).
Source http://preservedtanks.com/Types.aspx?TypeCategoryId=310&Select=1
I don't know if it's the same Hetzer they are talking about allthough it seems to match up pretty well. All including the Right idler which is indeed a 12 hole one
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 08:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI know one thing for sure Robert .. it was a pretty new vehicle before it was made into FUBAR ,,,the road wheels have hardly a mark on them ,,the rubber looks nearly brand new ..one thing that has me thinking that it didnt run over a mine is the damage to the engine ..one thing i know very very well is engines and just take a close look at the damage ..3/4 of the head is gone ..you can see the connecting rods and the side of the block is damaged from where one of the head bolts has been torn out of the block .. the strange thing is that all the con rods still have the pins in them that held the pistons to the con rods ..means the pistons were blown apart as they are soft alloy compared to the con rods which are high grade steel ..but this part has me miffed ..the con rods dont look like they have been bent at all ..nothing ..that is so strange ..in alot of ways this whole wreck is strange ..you can't see a point of impact from anything ..from below or on the sides or top ..its like it was torn off ,,just removed with alot of power ..oh another thing about the mine idea Robert ..the lower hull is knackered for sure but theres no twisting or pushing up of the lower hull ..let ya one thing tho mate ..i would love to know what did happen cause theres no much left to give us any clear ideas
PS I just spotted what looks like a entry or exit hole on the right hand side of the lower hull ..you can see it just under the guns breach .. i think something shot it in the ass area and continued straight out the other side ..would explain the damage to the engine too
I tend to agree with this, I think a round from something went straight through it, and tore apart the engine on its way through.
The Hetzer was a tin can on wheels, cheap and fast production, a young child could pop it open with a spud gun, I think if it was mine damage the lower hull would be bent and twisted badly, but it does not show signs of that, it just has rips and tears like something went pop inside.
Just an opinion.
Tin can it was, and these pics eliminate all doubt!
Think of this, a round entering would not create that damage to such a large section of hull. I'm referring to the area between the last two road wheels which is essentially pushed in.
If you draw a line from the upturned sponson floor to the middle of this area at the front and from the same point back following up turned plates you. get a V shape the point of which is under the roadwheels outside the hull.
Just my opinion.
G
WARDUKWNZ
Joined: June 01, 2011
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 10:07 AM UTC
Well what ever happened be it a mine or some shooting at it or both for all we know there is one thing we can all agree on .. glad we weren't in it ..Thanks to Robert for that walk around to ..great pics and super useful for us lot ..theres plenty of ideas and useful info there even tho its not 100% clear just what happened ..i've seen damage from tanks exploding which makes no since at all ,,one pic i have you would swear blind it was a tank round that hit it ,,nope a mine and one other pic i have its the total opposite ..i'm getting to old for this somedays i tell ya
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 12:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well what ever happened be it a mine or some shooting at it or both for all we know there is one thing we can all agree on .. glad we weren't in it ..Thanks to Robert for that walk around to ..great pics and super useful for us lot ..theres plenty of ideas and useful info there even tho its not 100% clear just what happened ..i've seen damage from tanks exploding which makes no since at all ,,one pic i have you would swear blind it was a tank round that hit it ,,nope a mine and one other pic i have its the total opposite ..i'm getting to old for this somedays i tell ya
Wait until you do it for a living!
We had a series of mob related bombings that spanned several years. Because each scene was different, several times detectives were at wits end. I was the one tasked with re-creating the devices, and performing test shots filming them for the trial and for training afterwards.
I'm just glad I wasn't on the receiving end either.
G
MasonTheKid
Joined: June 09, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, August 07, 2011 - 12:20 PM UTC
Guys, thank you for the education!
WARDUKWNZ
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Posted: Sunday, August 07, 2011 - 10:57 PM UTC
Wayne mate i will remember this to my dieing day ,,never let Wayne near the toilets ,,you would be a demon with cherry bombs dude and my god what a fun job that could be ,, I learned a little about demo in the army ,,nothing to special ..hell i aint spec ops lol i just know how to stick a det into a bloke of C4 and hit the button if it goes "BOOM" then i did it right ..if it dont go boom then i am going the other way hehehe ... oh hope you guys caught the %uckers responsible
and my god what a fun job that could be ,, I learned a little about demo in the army ,,nothing to special ..hell i aint spec ops lol i just know how to stick a det into a bloke of C4 and hit the button if it goes "BOOM" then i did it right ..if it dont go boom then i am going the other way hehehe ... oh hope you guys caught the %uckers responsible AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Monday, August 08, 2011 - 05:12 AM UTC
Phil,
I'm sitting here laughing my butt off. Oh we pulled some sweet pranks in the office for sure. I once taped "party poppers", those childrens toys where you pull the string and confetti pops out, under everyones desk. Pull your top drawer open, and get a lap full of confetti. "Snap and Pops" were another treat. Those are the small bags you toss to the ground and they go pop. Well, they work great on office chair wheels.................
We had a recruit class out at the range to observe. I was scheduled to destroy a live relic with a counter charge. I filled three, one gallon, milk jugs with gasoline and surrepticiously placed them in the pit with a bit of det cord and everything else.
They later said the looks on those kids faces were priceless.
As far as the case, when it was all said and done, one was executed, two received life sentences, and two received 25 years to life. We never had that sort of problem again.
G
I'm sitting here laughing my butt off. Oh we pulled some sweet pranks in the office for sure. I once taped "party poppers", those childrens toys where you pull the string and confetti pops out, under everyones desk. Pull your top drawer open, and get a lap full of confetti. "Snap and Pops" were another treat. Those are the small bags you toss to the ground and they go pop. Well, they work great on office chair wheels.................
We had a recruit class out at the range to observe. I was scheduled to destroy a live relic with a counter charge. I filled three, one gallon, milk jugs with gasoline and surrepticiously placed them in the pit with a bit of det cord and everything else.
They later said the looks on those kids faces were priceless.
As far as the case, when it was all said and done, one was executed, two received life sentences, and two received 25 years to life. We never had that sort of problem again.
G
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