Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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New/Modified M60 with 120mm
Frenchy
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 07:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

We're not buying Depleted Uranium (DU) armour or munitions, we are buying an advanced composite armour which is comparable and in some areas better, than DU."



To me it seems they're just buying brand new used tanks... "The tanks that will be provided to Australia have had relatively low usage and will be refurbished to "as new" condition" from this Australian Department of Defence press release July 9, 2004

I'm no expert but I believe that whereas you can replace all the bells & whistles, it would be quite complicated (not to say impossible...) to replace the original armor plating of a tank with another one

Frenchy
HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 08:42 AM UTC

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The information on the 80 destroyed M1s is from a US Army report and usatoday and the freelibarary.com. I seriously doubt that all of those souces would have some sort of a unified vendeta against a tank.



There are a few issues with the sources. "Destroyed" does not mean beyond repair. I believe there have only been about 18 Abrams destroyed beyond repair and all of those were from large IEDs exploding from below or from EFPs and/or RPGs hitting the rear area then causing a catastrophic fire that melted down the tank. There is no composite (the US codeword for a Chobamh-like armor, since we couldn't use the British name of it) underneath or on the hull rear or sides, only in the front slope and the turret. The rest of the tanks were damaged, rebuilt, and sent back to units to use. Some most likely became the Aussie M1A1 AIMs, more on that later.


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As for the M1's armour my source is Jane's Combat Vehicle Recognition Guide, Fully-Updated Second Edition by Christopher Foss. It designates the M1's armour as Laminate/Steel to the Challenger I as Chobahm/Steel to the the K1 as Laminate. And for a correction, it lists the T-72's armour as composite/steel. So the M1 has no Chobahm armour.



The problem here is a copyrighted name, Chobahm is the British designation of the composite armor. The US uses their own derivative of it and simply calls it laminate armor, not specifically Chobahm. It is basically the same thing though, just US made. So Jane's is right, and the Abrams does use a Chobahm-equivalent armor made of laminated composites.


Quoted Text

As for the Australian M1s according to www.defence.gov.au,"We're not buying Depleted Uranium (DU) armour or munitions, we are buying an advanced composite armour which is comparable and in some areas better, than DU." looks like someone's information is off so I wouldn't suggest being accusitory.



The Aussie M1A1s are rebuilt, older US M1A1s w/out DU armor. They are called M1A1 AIM (Abrams Integrated Management) Program tanks. They are older tanks totally stripped down to their bare hulls and rebuilt with new or rebuilt components to restore them to like-new (0 hours, 0 miles) condition. They still have the laminate armor of all Abrams, just not the DU armor of later Abrams.

As to why no Challenger IIs have been destroyed in Iraq is simple numbers and how they were used. The US has had thousands of Abrams all over Iraq over the last 8+ years. The Brits have had a Bn of Challys at a time and only in Basrah, one of the quietest areas of Iraq. If the Challys were there in the same numbers, doing the same missions, they too would have similar loss rates. The Chally II and Abrams are pretty much equal in survivability, lethality, and all other areas.

You may just want to listen to some of the guys who have actually worked on and crewed the Abrams. They do know what they are talking about. Just because you read something in a book does not mean it is exactly as the book states it. Experience has its value as well. When you take both the book knowledge and combine it with the valuable experiences of those who have been there and done that, you usually have a more clear picture of what really is.
Trisaw
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 09:37 AM UTC
Gino,

Is it true that the M1A1s exported to other nations' armies lack the Chobham armor, fire control, and thermal optics on U.S. Abrams, forcing the foreign nation to buy foreign armor packages and optics? Or are the Abrams exported the same as the ones the U.S. has?

I'd think the Abrams still has "U.S. Only" items and "trade secrets" in it even if the MBT is 20 years old and that foreign Abrams still are "inferior" in capabilities to the USA and USMC ones to prevent any secrets from leaking out into the wrong hands. Or am I wrong?

Thanks.

-------------

As for those Jane's bookstore books, I know which ones they are. Not to insult Jane's, but those books are pretty simplistic because Jane's charges a huge sum for the books that contain a wealth of info, and most of those expensive books are by subscription only. Ever since the end of the Cold War, I've seen Jane's info get simplier...the library archives I saw show this. One really needs to be a Jane's subscriber in order to get detailed info.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 09:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gino,

Is it true that the M1A1s exported to other nations' armies lack the Chobham armor, fire control, and thermal optics on U.S. Abrams, forcing the foreign nation to buy foreign armor packages and optics? Or are the Abrams exported the same as the ones the U.S. has?

I'd think the Abrams still has "U.S. Only" items and "trade secrets" in it even if the MBT is 20 years old and that foreign Abrams still are "inferior" in capabilities to the USA and USMC ones to prevent any secrets from leaking out into the wrong hands. Or am I wrong?



Pete,

The export M1A1s do still have the laminate (a.k.a "Chobahm") armor, it is integral to the turret armor. They may or may not have DU armor, it depends on what the buyer wants. In the case of Australia, their nuclear policy won't allow the DU armor since it is nuclear related. I think Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all have the DU on theirs. They usually have a generation behind what most current US versions have as far as optics, fire control systems, etc. As always though, it is the crew that will make or break a tank, not necessarily the latest gadgets.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 10:50 AM UTC
I should be going to the AUSA show....I need to get my tickets this week!
Tankrider
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 11:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all have the DU on theirs. They usually have a generation behind what most current US versions have as far as optics, fire control systems, etc.



Actually, the export vehicles armor packages are all about the same: non-DU armor...

Keep in mind, the off topic discussion here was centered around skirts, not turret armor... There are two types of skirts, The combination special armor and steel skirts that all M1 series possess, from the factory and the replacement skirts that were installed when ARAT (Abrams Reactive Armor TIles) I & II were installed as part of the TUSK upgrades in Iraq.

As for combat losses, the US Army has suffered tank losses during its time in Iraq, so what. The tank was not designed for counterinsurgencies, no modern tank is: adapted, yes, designed , no. Look to see what the percentage of casualties from those losses were. Any tank can be destroyed US, British, German, Israeli, Russian, Chinese, etc... But which one allows its crew to survive catastrophic destruction of the platform??? The crew is more important than the vehicle in most tank producing countries, hence vehicle loses are acceptable, as long as the crew survives...

FWIW

JC
HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 11:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Keep in mind, the off topic discussion here was centered around skirts, not turret armor...



He talked about the Chobahm armor and the Abrams lack of it too. Read a couple posts above mine. He has been all over the place on this.


Quoted Text

As for combat losses, the US Army has suffered tank losses during its time in Iraq, so what. The tank was not designed for counterinsurgencies, no modern tank is: adapted, yes, designed , no. Look to see what the percentage of casualties from those losses were. Any tank can be destroyed US, British, German, Israeli, Russian, Chinese, etc... But which one allows its crew to survive catastrophic destruction of the platform??? The crew is more important than the vehicle in most tank producing countries, hence vehicle loses are acceptable, as long as the crew survives...



I couldn't agree more. Good points.
majjanelson
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 04:26 AM UTC
WOW. I just took pictures of something I thought was cool looking.
210cav
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 05:17 AM UTC

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I am still thinking that this is an upgrade for countries to upgrade their existing M60 fleets. That lack of a turret reactive armor package and the turret bar armor still puzzles me...

John


John-- at long last, I finally found something to agree with you on. I am confident it is an export version, I think it is going to APG. Maybe a stop at AUSA convention. Are you going to AUSA?
DJ
Trisaw
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 06:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text




I am still thinking that this is an upgrade for countries to upgrade their existing M60 fleets. That lack of a turret reactive armor package and the turret bar armor still puzzles me...

John


John-- at long last, I finally found something to agree with you on. I am confident it is an export version, I think it is going to APG. Maybe a stop at AUSA convention. Are you going to AUSA?
DJ



If export, kind of doesn't make sense though. Why would an export version have Blue Force Tracker on it (if that's what it is next to the driver's hatch). Isn't BFT a "US-Only" electronics GPS system? This is why I asked if the M60 is USMC prepositioned stock, upgraded, and going to be stuck back into the garage for another decade. Wouldn't make sense here either as where is the turret frontal armor of for USMC?

Of course one could use BFT to track this tank across the US and then remove it once exported. Still, why track this tank then if it's so important to have BFT and not cover the darn thing up?

I think it's a robotics demonstrator.

The beige paint scheme seems to suggest it's for the desert, not Taiwan. However, how many Middle East countries use M60s not upgraded to the wedge turret standards? As the photos posted here, those M60s look way better protected than this one. If for ANA, is there really a need for cameras in the rear? Afghanistan is open treeless desert...no worry about backing into something.
TacticalSquirrel
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 06:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text




I am still thinking that this is an upgrade for countries to upgrade their existing M60 fleets. That lack of a turret reactive armor package and the turret bar armor still puzzles me...

John


John-- at long last, I finally found something to agree with you on. I am confident it is an export version, I think it is going to APG. Maybe a stop at AUSA convention. Are you going to AUSA?
DJ



If export, kind of doesn't make sense though. Why would an export version have Blue Force Tracker on it (if that's what it is next to the driver's hatch). Isn't BFT a "US-Only" electronics GPS system? This is why I asked if the M60 is USMC prepositioned stock, upgraded, and going to be stuck back into the garage for another decade. Wouldn't make sense here either as where is the turret frontal armor of for USMC?

Of course one could use BFT to track this tank across the US and then remove it once exported. Still, why track this tank then if it's so important to have BFT and not cover the darn thing up?

I think it's a robotics demonstrator.

The beige paint scheme seems to suggest it's for the desert, not Taiwan. However, how many Middle East countries use M60s not upgraded to the wedge turret standards? As the photos posted here, those M60s look way better protected than this one. If for ANA, is there really a need for cameras in the rear? Afghanistan is open treeless desert...no worry about backing into something.

put bold text here

You ever been there? I am assuming you haven't as there are lots of trees and not a ton of vast open desert in Afghanistan.

As fr BFT, I believe there is an export package and know for a fact allies have been given the BFT.
Tankrider
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

John-- at long last, I finally found something to agree with you on. I am confident it is an export version, I think it is going to APG. Maybe a stop at AUSA convention. Are you going to AUSA?
DJ



DJ,
Does that mean that I can finally move from D/10 Cav to 2-10 Cav??? AUSA is not on my list of conferences for this year. I might get to go to AOC in DC in November...


Quoted Text

If export, kind of doesn't make sense though. Why would an export version have Blue Force Tracker on it (if that's what it is next to the driver's hatch). Isn't BFT a "US-Only" electronics GPS system? This is why I asked if the M60 is USMC prepositioned stock, upgraded, and going to be stuck back into the garage for another decade. Wouldn't make sense here either as where is the turret frontal armor of for USMC?

Of course one could use BFT to track this tank across the US and then remove it once exported. Still, why track this tank then if it's so important to have BFT and not cover the darn thing up?

I think it's a robotics demonstrator.



Pete,
I am pretty sure that it is not a BFT antenna as they are usually mounted where the satellite signal will not be disturbed by vehicle components, like the turret... I would guess that it is an electrical "recepticle"/connection to allow a standard Mine Plow or Rake to be powered without havinng to drop a driver's vision block, much like the M1A1 AIMS & A2SEPs. It may also be a forward looking camera pod, lending basis to your theory about a robotic vehicle. If so, I would be interested in seeing how the autoloader is set up inside of the turret...

Still, my bet is on an upgrade/urban combat package aimed at M60A1/A3 users in the Middle East.

and now, for something that is

Steve,
I need a virtual beer run... Could you to find some Hatchplug Ale from the Cavalry Brewing Company of Connecticut and then drop me a line...

John
TacticalSquirrel
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 10:55 AM UTC
I tried that last week, they sell it here at Whole Foods. Do you really want some? I can provide my friend.
Tankrider
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Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 - 11:02 AM UTC
You are a good man Steve T.

`I will drop you an e-mail to do the coordination for delivery... Think a virtual Smokey and the Bandit...

John
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 12:50 AM UTC
{quote} Steve,
I need a virtual beer run... Could you to find some Hatchplug Ale from the Cavalry Brewing Company of Connecticut and then drop me a line...

John
[quote]

John-- just when I had hope for you, Some things never change, you stay in D/10 until further notice
DJ
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 04:08 AM UTC
That must be some good beer! Better bring some to AMPS if you're going, I'm hoping to get there next spring if the world doesn't end by then...

Jim
rfbaer
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 04:30 AM UTC
My take on the M60: After testing, it's the first of several that will do border patrol down this way.
Sorry, had to throw that in.
Trisaw
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 05:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I should be going to the AUSA show....I need to get my tickets this week!



Off topic...

I'd be way more interested in the NEW cutting-edge stuff at the AUSA show instead of this oldie modified M60 (sorry). Are photos allowed at the AUSA show and could they be posted online?

Why? See, I believe a lot of our military problems could be solved by vehicles already made as prototypes at these shows instead of sending out contracts for scratchbuilds that end up going overbudget and getting cancelled. That is IF our military cares to buy and test AUSA show prototypes (which they do for some).
panamadan
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 05:37 AM UTC
I'm surpised that the cupola for the M85 is still there-anyone who has served on a '60 knows that can be improved on...
Dan
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 08:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I should be going to the AUSA show....I need to get my tickets this week!



Off topic...

I'd be way more interested in the NEW cutting-edge stuff at the AUSA show instead of this oldie modified M60 (sorry). Are photos allowed at the AUSA show and could they be posted online?

Why? See, I believe a lot of our military problems could be solved by vehicles already made as prototypes at these shows instead of sending out contracts for scratchbuilds that end up going overbudget and getting cancelled. That is IF our military cares to buy and test AUSA show prototypes (which they do for some).




There are no restrictions on photos at AUSA. Last year there was nothing that I would call cutting edge on display. The number of vendors and the equipment on display was limited to say the least.
My two cents
DJ
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Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 05:57 PM UTC
With regards to the photos, I have received information from a reliable "friend" in the industry. I've paraphrased it below:

"It is an upgrade produced by L-3 (the old Textron). It is a potential FMS sale M60 candidate. It was on the way to APG for some baseline testing. With regards to the two boxes on the rear, they are to be used for APU & TMS(?) systems."

Chris "toadman" Hughes
Toadman's Tank Pictures
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 02:58 AM UTC
^^That makes the most sense.^^ Thanks Chris.


Quoted Text

TMS(?)



TMS = Thermal Management System, military term for Air Conditioner. It looks like it is the same ones being installed on Bradleys.
majjanelson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 06:07 AM UTC
Yes, thank you ToadMan!

If you happen to find out more from your "source", I'm sure everyone would be glad to hear it. I know I would, since it looks like it would make a cool conversion project, especially on who/what may purchase them.

Tankrider
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Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 10:27 AM UTC
Jeff,
I would agree that the L3 demonstrator vehicle would make an interesting conversion. However, that rear shot of the M60-2000 that Gino provided has me thinking... . An AIM kit & an ESCI M60 kit, (or a Tamiya M1A1 & USMC M60A1 or M60A3 for that matter) and some styrene... an AMPS 2013 Catagory VII: Major Conversion entry...

John
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 10:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeff,
I would agree that the L3 demonstrator vehicle would make an interesting conversion. However, that rear shot of the M60-2000 that Gino provided has me thinking... . An AIM kit & an ESCI M60 kit, (or a Tamiya M1A1 & USMC M60A1 or M60A3 for that matter) and some styrene... an AMPS 2013 Catagory VII: Major Conversion entry...

John



I was thinking the same thing.

G