Pepe - Thanks for your comment and for looking in
Rounds Complete!!
Hosted by Darren Baker
1/35 M1917A4 155mm Howitzer WIP
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 831 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 20, 2011 - 01:26 PM UTC
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 831 posts
Posted: Monday, December 05, 2011 - 07:50 AM UTC
Well it has been a couple of weeks since I posted progress. First I worked on the air lines for the brakes. Using the Aber Pneumatic Details PE set and some 20 gauge SS wire I created the fittings from PE, the strain relief by creating a spring from the 20 gauge wire and the hose is the tubing supplied with the Aber set.
Here is the front air tank with the supply lines and feed lines to the brakes.
On the rear plate using the Aber kit, I assembled the air fitting connections and strain relief from the wire. The air line runs from the rear up each side and feeds the forward air tank.
Prior to adding the air lines the lower carriage along with the other parts of the howitzer were finished painted with Poly Scale OD. With the air lines in place the howitzer was final assembled. Using a PE stencil a 10inch scale White Star was painted onto the right side of the shield using Tamiya Flat White. The tires were painted with a 50/50 mix of Tamiya NATO and Flat Black.
Here is the front view of the assembled and painted howitzer
Here is the view from the rear
Next I gave the details and rivets a pin wash with MIG dark wash. After the pin wash dried, I gave the entire model a dot filter using Windsor & Newton White, Flesh and Sap Green along with Abteilung Light Mud. I spread the dots using MIG Grey for light Green. Using this mix gave the OD the faded look with a mixture of tones.
I finished up the weathering with a dusting of a mix of MIG Dried Mud and Industrial Dirt pigments. Here is the finished look
I created some details for the display. First was the 155mm ammunition using the AFV 155mm ammunition kit. The 155mm projectiles are painted with Tamiya OD. The rotating band is painted with Tamiya Flat Copper and the kit decals applied. The powder containers are also painted using Tamiya OD and the white band kit decals applied. The dunnage is 1/32 inch plywood cut in a scale 4 inch wide and 8 foot long strip. To weather and bring up the grain, a light coat of Minwax stain was used.
Some other details include a ramming staff from styrene rod and punched sheet styrene sheet for the end plate. The staff is painted with Tamiya OD and the end plate with Alclad Steel. The resin cast foot locker/section chest is painted with Tamiya OD and Alclad Steel on the hinges and hasp. The shovel is Tamiya Flat Black and Buff. The shovel is scratched using a #2 pencil.
After a visit to my woodwork shop to make the oak base, I created the ground with cell-u-clay and cheap buff colored acrylic paint mixed in. After drying, the surface had a light coat of the same MIG pigments used above. The spade hole used the same pigments with a touch of MIG Old Rust pigment to give it a darker freshly turned dirt look.
Here is the complete model
Here it is from the rear
That is it for this one. I would like to again thank Jon from Commander Models. This is a fun little kit that fills the void of the WWI and early WWII US Medium towed artillery.
Next up is the M115 8 inch howitzer
As always all comments are welcome
Rounds Complete!!
EOM
Here is the front air tank with the supply lines and feed lines to the brakes.
On the rear plate using the Aber kit, I assembled the air fitting connections and strain relief from the wire. The air line runs from the rear up each side and feeds the forward air tank.
Prior to adding the air lines the lower carriage along with the other parts of the howitzer were finished painted with Poly Scale OD. With the air lines in place the howitzer was final assembled. Using a PE stencil a 10inch scale White Star was painted onto the right side of the shield using Tamiya Flat White. The tires were painted with a 50/50 mix of Tamiya NATO and Flat Black.
Here is the front view of the assembled and painted howitzer
Here is the view from the rear
Next I gave the details and rivets a pin wash with MIG dark wash. After the pin wash dried, I gave the entire model a dot filter using Windsor & Newton White, Flesh and Sap Green along with Abteilung Light Mud. I spread the dots using MIG Grey for light Green. Using this mix gave the OD the faded look with a mixture of tones.
I finished up the weathering with a dusting of a mix of MIG Dried Mud and Industrial Dirt pigments. Here is the finished look
I created some details for the display. First was the 155mm ammunition using the AFV 155mm ammunition kit. The 155mm projectiles are painted with Tamiya OD. The rotating band is painted with Tamiya Flat Copper and the kit decals applied. The powder containers are also painted using Tamiya OD and the white band kit decals applied. The dunnage is 1/32 inch plywood cut in a scale 4 inch wide and 8 foot long strip. To weather and bring up the grain, a light coat of Minwax stain was used.
Some other details include a ramming staff from styrene rod and punched sheet styrene sheet for the end plate. The staff is painted with Tamiya OD and the end plate with Alclad Steel. The resin cast foot locker/section chest is painted with Tamiya OD and Alclad Steel on the hinges and hasp. The shovel is Tamiya Flat Black and Buff. The shovel is scratched using a #2 pencil.
After a visit to my woodwork shop to make the oak base, I created the ground with cell-u-clay and cheap buff colored acrylic paint mixed in. After drying, the surface had a light coat of the same MIG pigments used above. The spade hole used the same pigments with a touch of MIG Old Rust pigment to give it a darker freshly turned dirt look.
Here is the complete model
Here it is from the rear
That is it for this one. I would like to again thank Jon from Commander Models. This is a fun little kit that fills the void of the WWI and early WWII US Medium towed artillery.
Next up is the M115 8 inch howitzer
As always all comments are welcome
Rounds Complete!!
EOM
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 05, 2011 - 08:18 AM UTC
She came out great Mike. Great job as usual.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 05, 2011 - 08:37 AM UTC
Mike, the bands near the base of the projectiles aren't the driving bands but a fiber gromment installed over the driving bands to protect them during shipment. They would be a dark brown/gray. In fact, they are probably anachronistic for the Mk I projectiles used in the M1917/M1918 series. I think they would be more likely to use rope grommets. There are other aspects of the ammunition that were different as well, but I doubt anyone really would notice or care.
KL
KL
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 05, 2011 - 08:54 AM UTC
Gino - Thanks for the peek and the kind words
Kurt - Yep....the ammunition is not technical correct for the M1917. The AFV kit 155mm ammunition is modeled more around modern 155mm ammunition. I will agree that very few people will notice. Its not perfect but no model is perfect.
For those who want to understand the rotating band rivet detail we are discussing
www.redleg2scale.com/RBMI%20Info/TM9-1901.pdf
Look at 155mm howitzer ammunition.
Thanks for the peek Kurt.....and yes, you are one of the 5 modelers on the entire planet that would notice!! After you and I we need to find the other 3...lol
Rounds Complete!!
Kurt - Yep....the ammunition is not technical correct for the M1917. The AFV kit 155mm ammunition is modeled more around modern 155mm ammunition. I will agree that very few people will notice. Its not perfect but no model is perfect.
For those who want to understand the rotating band rivet detail we are discussing
www.redleg2scale.com/RBMI%20Info/TM9-1901.pdf
Look at 155mm howitzer ammunition.
Thanks for the peek Kurt.....and yes, you are one of the 5 modelers on the entire planet that would notice!! After you and I we need to find the other 3...lol
Rounds Complete!!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 04:21 AM UTC
did you get the pics OK?
gary
gary
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:15 AM UTC
Gary - Beat me with a stick....I was sure I emailed you but yes I got them all and
THANK YOU!!!!.....I owe you one.
Rounds Complete!!
THANK YOU!!!!.....I owe you one.
Rounds Complete!!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 11:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Gary - Beat me with a stick....I was sure I emailed you but yes I got them all and
THANK YOU!!!!.....I owe you one.
Rounds Complete!!
I found some more the otherday (same gun), so if something's amiss let me know. I also found a bunch of M5 antitank gun pics in that lot. Also if you are planning on doing the M1 from Bronco let me know. I have a nice one close buy with the correct jack and all the brackets still in place. By chance have you got any Vietnam era M102 pics? I got a diorama project for the VFW that will need three guns and a lot of scratch building.
My photo collections are always open to anybody, and if I have something; it's yours to use.
gary
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 831 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 06:54 AM UTC
Gary - Thanks. I will be picking up an M114when it comes out. I have the M1 also. I am interested like you to see if they get the jack correct on the pig. As for the M102, most of the shots I have is not close or good enough to get details. Here is some shots form Toadman
http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/m102.htm
Thanks again
Rounds Complete!!
http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/m102.htm
Thanks again
Rounds Complete!!
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 07:25 AM UTC
That piece came out very nicely. Well done! I understand your comments about the projos being close. If you want some accurate ones for the time period the Academy M12 comes with two. You could always cast more.
However, since earlier you said
then what will be noticeable is the color. Prior to January of 43 the projos were yellow with black markings.
You're down to two people now.
HTH
However, since earlier you said
Quoted Text
.....it is early WWII.
then what will be noticeable is the color. Prior to January of 43 the projos were yellow with black markings.
You're down to two people now.
HTH
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 831 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:50 AM UTC
Bob -Thanks for the look. Yep...we are not rivet counters...we are members of the rotating band counters.
Now we caught the projo.....no one commented on the powder cans!. The M1917 used short powder bags. In order to look close I used the AFV 8 inch powder cans which is closer to the right length.... but a bit fatter!.
Again thanks Bob.
Rounds Complete!!
Now we caught the projo.....no one commented on the powder cans!. The M1917 used short powder bags. In order to look close I used the AFV 8 inch powder cans which is closer to the right length.... but a bit fatter!.
Again thanks Bob.
Rounds Complete!!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Gary - Thanks. I will be picking up an M114when it comes out. I have the M1 also. I am interested like you to see if they get the jack correct on the pig. As for the M102, most of the shots I have is not close or good enough to get details. Here is some shots form Toadman
http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/m102.htm
Thanks again
Rounds Complete!!
looks like there might be a few changes in the tool mounts and other items normally carried on the gun from the early to late versions. I could be wrong, but it looks that way. I don't have a pic of the early jack plate, so I gotta assume they are the same. The rest of the piece looks nearly identical, except for the tires and maybe the wheels
gary
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Bob -Thanks for the look. Yep...we are not rivet counters...we are members of the rotating band counters.
Now we caught the projo.....no one commented on the powder cans!. The M1917 used short powder bags. In order to look close I used the AFV 8 inch powder cans which is closer to the right length.... but a bit fatter!.
Again thanks Bob.
Rounds Complete!!
I noticed it, but not for the same reason. I was thinking that the powder was shipped differently in the early stages of WWII. This look like white bag tubes, and doubt the gun could have handled white bag powder. I think that gun was one of the last to use black powder type of propellent. I had no idea what an early projo looked like, but from what I could gather I suspect it was a lighter (weight) round and maybe shorter. The one photo I have of the piece shows them ramming the round home, but all you can see is the base of the round as I recall. We need to find somebody that lives down in Lawton, as they could simply drop by and ask the folks in the know.
gary
Grumpyoldman
ConsigliereJoined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
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Posted: Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 02:12 PM UTC
Very nice model Mike. What velicle would have towed that early in WW2? I imagine in WW1 it was horse towed, with a limber.
1.90E_31
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Armorama: 154 posts
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 12:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I imagine in WW1 it was horse towed, with a limber.
Hi Dave,
Actually, a French C17S Schneider 155mm in US service would have been towed by a 5-ton Holt T-11 Tractor (or 5-ton Artillery Tractor Model 1917) such as this:
Guns such as the 155mm GPF or British 60 pndr. would have been towed by the 10-ton version or the Holt 75 15-ton.
Jon
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 03:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBob -Thanks for the look. Yep...we are not rivet counters...we are members of the rotating band counters.
Now we caught the projo.....no one commented on the powder cans!. The M1917 used short powder bags. In order to look close I used the AFV 8 inch powder cans which is closer to the right length.... but a bit fatter!.
Again thanks Bob.
Rounds Complete!!
I noticed it, but not for the same reason. I was thinking that the powder was shipped differently in the early stages of WWII. This look like white bag tubes, and doubt the gun could have handled white bag powder. I think that gun was one of the last to use black powder type of propellent. I had no idea what an early projo looked like, but from what I could gather I suspect it was a lighter (weight) round and maybe shorter. The one photo I have of the piece shows them ramming the round home, but all you can see is the base of the round as I recall. We need to find somebody that lives down in Lawton, as they could simply drop by and ask the folks in the know.
gary
Black powder was long gone by the time this piece appeared even in French service, except for the igniter bag. The M1917/M1918 used a seven section bag charge that was a natural silk color until the usual white bag/green bag system was developed closer to the war. The propellant was stored in one of two "cartridge storage cases" . One was similar in concept to the later designs but without a stiffening/stacking ring on the body and with a two-armed clamping spider. From what I can tell they might might have been a gray galvanized color rather than painted. The other was a fiber tube with metal ends crimped on.
The Mk I shell was similar in shape to the M101/M102/M107 HE rounds but it used a flat closing plug in the fuze well rather than a lifting eye. There was a Mk IV "common steel shell" that was a copy of the original French projectile. It had a blunter ogive (nose contour) and a cylindrical rather than tapered base to the rear of the driving band. The difference between the WW I and WW II rounds as well as between those for guns and howitzers was the number and size of the driving bands. The Mk I mainly used a single .59 inch long band.
Pre-war shells typically used the long M46 and M47 fuzes rather than the M48 and later types that were similar to the shapes used today.
A colorful and interesting pre-war scene could be made using black fiber cartridge cases with dull metal ends, yellow HE rounds with black stenciling and long M46 fuzes, red shrapnel rounds and their tin tear away fuze covers, and a gloss finished weapon.
KL
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 06:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextBob -Thanks for the look. Yep...we are not rivet counters...we are members of the rotating band counters.
Now we caught the projo.....no one commented on the powder cans!. The M1917 used short powder bags. In order to look close I used the AFV 8 inch powder cans which is closer to the right length.... but a bit fatter!.
Again thanks Bob.
Rounds Complete!!
I noticed it, but not for the same reason. I was thinking that the powder was shipped differently in the early stages of WWII. This look like white bag tubes, and doubt the gun could have handled white bag powder. I think that gun was one of the last to use black powder type of propellent. I had no idea what an early projo looked like, but from what I could gather I suspect it was a lighter (weight) round and maybe shorter. The one photo I have of the piece shows them ramming the round home, but all you can see is the base of the round as I recall. We need to find somebody that lives down in Lawton, as they could simply drop by and ask the folks in the know.
gary
Black powder was long gone by the time this piece appeared even in French service, except for the igniter bag. The M1917/M1918 used a seven section bag charge that was a natural silk color until the usual white bag/green bag system was developed closer to the war. The propellant was stored in one of two "cartridge storage cases" . One was similar in concept to the later designs but without a stiffening/stacking ring on the body and with a two-armed clamping spider. From what I can tell they might might have been a gray galvanized color rather than painted. The other was a fiber tube with metal ends crimped on.
The Mk I shell was similar in shape to the M101/M102/M107 HE rounds but it used a flat closing plug in the fuze well rather than a lifting eye. There was a Mk IV "common steel shell" that was a copy of the original French projectile. It had a blunter ogive (nose contour) and a cylindrical rather than tapered base to the rear of the driving band. The difference between the WW I and WW II rounds as well as between those for guns and howitzers was the number and size of the driving bands. The Mk I mainly used a single .59 inch long band.
Pre-war shells typically used the long M46 and M47 fuzes rather than the M48 and later types that were similar to the shapes used today.
A colorful and interesting pre-war scene could be made using black fiber cartridge cases with dull metal ends, yellow HE rounds with black stenciling and long M46 fuzes, red shrapnel rounds and their tin tear away fuze covers, and a gloss finished weapon.
KL
I was always told that they used black powder in WWI arty pieces as well as in naval rounds upto the very early thirties. Never tried to confirm this. The one photo of the guys ramming the round home clearly shows the round was a flat based round rather than a typical boat tailed round we know of. It also looks shorter, but that could have been an optical illusion created in the photo. (the one photo I've seen was actually taken somewhere around the very early stages of WWII in the Phillepenes (wasn't titled, but that's where it looks to be).
Might add here that the reason for the boat tailed rounds was to increase the ballistic coefficient of the projo. The rounds came out longer forthe same weight and had better aerodynamics; thus giving them a little more range for the same powder charge. (a good example is to compair a 175mm gun round with an eight inch round. The 175 weighs 147lb., but is much longer and streamlined than the 204 pound eight inch round. That alone was probably good for two to three miles of range. Later the Navy built some eight inch guns that used a much longer projectile that closely resembled the 175 in shape and probably a similar B/C. With a much greater powder charge they were claiming 35 miles of range (I still find that hard to believe). Lastly the longer and higher B/C rounds also didn't shoot well in standard rifled barrels because they didn't have as fast a twist rate in the rifeling to stabalize the higher B/C.
I shot 155mm projectiles made in 1944, and as late as 1967. They were virtually identical, but with one exception. The rounds made in the mid to late 1960's had a nylon ring right behind the driving band. The nylon bands could be found on the ground out in front of the barrel after firing.
gary
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 831 posts
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 02:08 PM UTC
Dave - Always a pleasure to have you drop by and thanks
Jon - Interesting little tractor. i would think in US service, especially at the approach of WWII it would use at least a 5 ton truck.....
Kurt - You have been reading and studying TMs way too much....lol interesting stuff!!
Gary - Ahhhh....nothing like firing old ammunition.
Rounds Complete!!
Jon - Interesting little tractor. i would think in US service, especially at the approach of WWII it would use at least a 5 ton truck.....
Kurt - You have been reading and studying TMs way too much....lol interesting stuff!!
Gary - Ahhhh....nothing like firing old ammunition.
Rounds Complete!!
1.90E_31
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Armorama: 154 posts
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 02:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Jon - Interesting little tractor. i would think in US service, especially at the approach of WWII it would use at least a 5 ton truck.....
The 5-ton tractors, as far as my research has taken me, left service in the mid 1920's. However, the 10-ton tractors were still in service into the mid 1930's, as can be seen in these photos from Hawaii:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=157871
I have also seen a picture or two of captured 10-ton's like these in the Philippines, but I'm pretty sure they were out of service generally by 1940.
Grumpyoldman
ConsigliereJoined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 04:48 AM UTC
Thanks Joe.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 12:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Kurt - You have been reading and studying TMs way too much....lol interesting stuff!!
Pfft! TMs are too new for this piece!
(*) I got that info from a TR, Technical Regulation, from 1927 and a privately published artillery textbook from 1937. TMs didn't come about until around 1940.(*) The M1917/M1918 howitzer TM issued in 1944 included the M1917A4 carriage but the ammunition section only refered to the WW II items.
KL
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