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Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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What vehicles were part of the 1st SS Panzer?
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... you must not confuse the WaffenSS (in any part of it's history) with the AllgemeineSS or Concentration camp guards or eastern front death squads.


Jerry, I think it's an undisputed fact that camp guards were being rotated in and out of active duty. If you have evidence otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Quoted Text

By wars'end most of the WaffenSS were transcripts or luftwaffe transplants


I assume you mean conscripts, but we're not talking the end of the war. The SS for the most part were enthusiastic volunteers, especially Wiking which many of the Dutch Nazis joined.

Quoted Text

And yes,I know that there were war crimes but what war does not have those? Remember Wounded Knee?


Sherman said it best: war is all hell.

But I think it's quite clear that elements of the Waffen-SS were prone to ignoring the Geneva Convention. We can debate this endlessly, and I think it's more profitable if we use our research skills to look at vehicle types than to argue philosophy. I have asked the section moderator to keep an eye on this thread, and to step in if it gets too prickly.

And to that end, I did not know the LAH had 251Cs and not Ds. Is there a good reference you can cite, Jerry, for those of us who'd like to brush up on equipment allocations to the various SS divisions?
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:25 AM UTC
Were the 251 Cs in SS service during the Kharkov or Ardennes operations? I doub't they would have been flatheading through Allied lines during the Ardennes campaign; but, there were a few rivers to cross. I feel reasonbly sure they were present during the Kharkov campaign, as there was a definite need to move east across the river. I have this saved somewhere, but can not remember the name of the rivers.
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

... you must not confuse the WaffenSS (in any part of it's history) with the AllgemeineSS or Concentration camp guards or eastern front death squads.


Jerry, I think it's an undisputed fact that camp guards were being rotated in and out of active duty. If you have evidence otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Quoted Text

By wars'end most of the WaffenSS were transcripts or luftwaffe transplants


I assume you mean conscripts, but we're not talking the end of the war. The SS for the most part were enthusiastic volunteers, especially Wiking which many of the Dutch Nazis joined.

Quoted Text

And yes,I know that there were war crimes but what war does not have those? Remember Wounded Knee?


Sherman said it best: war is all hell.

But I think it's quite clear that elements of the Waffen-SS were prone to ignoring the Geneva Convention. We can debate this endlessly, and I think it's more profitable if we use our research skills to look at vehicle types than to argue philosophy. I have asked the section moderator to keep an eye on this thread, and to step in if it gets too prickly.

And to that end, I did not know the LAH had 251Cs and not Ds. Is there a good reference you can cite, Jerry, for those of us who'd like to brush up on equipment allocations to the various SS divisions?


Once again,I had to be general in topic as the time frame was so big. In reference to the 251s,as I stated in a previous post,the LAH had 251cs whenthey left Russia in the summer of 43 after Kursk was called off. So Matt,yes Karkov would have been 251Cs. After the intense defensive battles during the winer of 43/44 they were so reduced that when they arrived in Belgium for refit they were reprimanded by the local area commander for "parading down the street with horse carts". So then I guess that at this point they used the 251H(horse). The refit in Belgium was the 251D as it was in production by then. This info is from Martin Block and also from the biography of Jochen Peiper,which also covers the cuncurrent history of the III/SSPzGrenRegt2 which Peiper commanded from before Karkov to right before they left Italy. This volumn has hundreds of pics of vehicles and annecdotes from veterans and has cool details on the fitting of the 251s in the "Blowtorch" Bn. I have other ref books as well so can be extremely confident of the marks of the 251s used.
And,yes,even during the May June refit in 44 they were getting an overwhelming number of conscripts and former Luftwaffe people as replacements. So if this qualifies as late war I can't say as there was almost a good year of aweful fighting left.

I am not disputing your facts about atrocities,just trying to point out that History has a way of coloring and embellishing itself,depending on the teller.
I thought that I was very civil and so am kind of surprised that you felt the need to"alert the mods"
Just sayin.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:13 PM UTC
I didn't alert the mods. I believe Bill did that on his own. The victorious write the history. So, it's understandable that so much would be "colored".
I may have to buy a copy of that book. I have a unabridged book dealing with WWII, but I find that quite a bit is left out.
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:42 PM UTC
SS-Standartenführer Fritz Witt, the commander of the 1st SS Panzergrenadier Regiment advances in the cover of a SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C along Sumskaya street in Kharkov. The city was recaptured by the Waffen-SS on March 14, 1943. :



HTH

Frenchy
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I am not disputing your facts about atrocities, just trying to point out that History has a way of coloring and embellishing itself, depending on the teller.


There is some truth to what you say, but I know some here have indicated to me they are uncomfortable seeing everything reduced to the same. I don't think there's any question that the Nazis (and you can group under that rubric more than just the Waffen-SS) committed savagery on a scale beyond what happens in most wars.

Quoted Text

I thought that I was very civil and so am kind of surprised that you felt the need to "alert the mods"
Just sayin.


Jerry, I don't have moderator privileges here, so when a controversial subject comes up (e.g., Cromwell Models, LOL), then we sometimes need to have some oversight by those who do. The comment was not directed at you, but to encourage the discussion to remain civil-- as it has. Your depth of knowledge is an invaluable addition to this forum, and you know how much I respect you.

The SS tends to bring out strong emotions in many of us, and I wanted to make sure things stay civil here. I have no doubt they will, and hope you will not take umbrage at anything said.
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

SS-Standartenführer Fritz Witt, the commander of the 1st SS Panzergrenadier Regiment advances in the cover of a SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C along Sumskaya street in Kharkov. The city was recaptured by the Waffen-SS on March 14, 1943. :



HTH

Frenchy



Thanks Frenchy,
This is a perfect pic for the Karkov battle. It shows some of the mods that I mentioned the LAH used on their tracks.
Veterans mentioned they used a lot of spare track links on the bow plate as well as seperate steel plates bolted a few inches from the bow plate. They also used beams or logs at the top outside plates of the crew compartment. These pieces of wood helped deflect shrapnel and small arms fire away from the crew. The crews on some vehicles also removed the armor shield from the MG position as it deflected rounds into the crew when the MG was turned to the side.
Remember also that only the third Bn of the 2ndSS PzGren Regt was equipped with armoured Pers Vehicles. The other 5 BNs in the 2 PzGrenRegt's rode in trucks.
Pz Lehr(army) was the only Pz Div in the army that had 2 fully equipped PzGren Regt's worth of SPW.
Sorry about miss spellings and words,etc. Sometimes the combo of coffee and sticky buns gets me going too fast.
J
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:17 PM UTC
You're welcome Jerry. just wanted to put the thread back on track

Frenchy
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I am not disputing your facts about atrocities, just trying to point out that History has a way of coloring and embellishing itself, depending on the teller.


There is some truth to what you say, but I know some here have indicated to me they are uncomfortable seeing everything reduced to the same. I don't think there's any question that the Nazis (and you can group under that rubric more than just the Waffen-SS) committed savagery on a scale beyond what happens in most wars.

Quoted Text

I thought that I was very civil and so am kind of surprised that you felt the need to "alert the mods"
Just sayin.


Jerry, I don't have moderator privileges here, so when a controversial subject comes up (e.g., Cromwell Models, LOL), then we sometimes need to have some oversight by those who do. The comment was not directed at you, but to encourage the discussion to remain civil-- as it has. Your depth of knowledge is an invaluable addition to this forum, and you know how much I respect you.

The SS tends to bring out strong emotions in many of us, and I wanted to make sure things stay civil here. I have no doubt they will, and hope you will not take umbrage at anything said.


No offense taken or meant.
Let me be clear though,the SS has no love from me! I was only speaking as a former infantry soldier and veteran of 2 combat zones. I was not defending the SS by any means,just trying maybe to point out distinctions. Differences that I had not known myself until a lot of recent reading.
J
bill_c
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Posted: Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 11:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No offense taken or meant.


Thanks, Jerry! We really appreciate your "switch" from propeller-head to tread-head, LOL.

To your point about differences in equipment, Wolfgang Schneider made a light industry out of the deployment of the Tiger tanks, and they were by no means all given to the SS.
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve, that's a very interesting account, and I appreciate its depth, but I don't entirely agree with you that the 9th SS is typical of the SS overall. It certainly is only partially accurate when describing the original four SS divisions.

Those four grew out of four regiments: LS, Germania, Deutschland and Der Führer. They were combined as the SS-Verfügungs Division for the invasion of France, then gradually upgraded to PG divisions, then later full Panzer divisions (the difference being the number of tanks allotted).

The LAH (also called LSSAH) and the other "four core" Waffen SS divisions (Wiking, Das Reich and Totenkopf) had been strengthened to the status of Panzer divisions by the campaign around Kharkov in 1943. According to George Stein's The Waffen SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939–1945 cited here, the division already had a FlaK unit and a StuG battery.

The SS, like the rest of the Wehrmacht, liked to form new divisions rather than totally refitting existing ones. This meant the new units were often understrength and under-equipped. Therefore extrapolating one unit's OOB to another's is risky IMO.



Bill,
You are absolutely correct about the history of LAH.
However the question was specifically about the timescale 1943-44, after the bloodletting at Kursk, the robbing of some of LAH top soldiers (not just "personalities" such as Witt, Meyer, Wunsche, Bremer and Mohnke (not a particularly savoury person)), but also many junior officers and NCO's. The LAH in Normandy was a pale reflection of its former self; during it's time in France it was completely rebuilt (again).
I admit I did forget the Flak Abteilung, which had SDkfz7s pulling the 88mm guns and the other versions with 37mm; and having consulted "Steel Inferno" by Michael Reynolds, it seems LAH did have a Stug Abteilung of 45 Stugs in 3 companies. It also had a Werfer Abteilung of 3 batteries (towing vehicle probably Sdkfz10). But in the main as far as the vehicles are concerned, I wasn't too far out. Reynolds gives 1SS AA a company with 16 Pumas - I'm not totally convinced, as this is a very rare vehicle but I won't argue. He does state that the first two companies had VWs rather than the SDkfz250 halftracks they should have had.
I did say that my 9SS history had a vehicle by vehicle breakdown, it even incudes the field kitchens and bread ovens - this is seldom seen in other unit histories, it's the "missing link" of military history if you like. 9SS & 10SS are interesting units to the historian precisely because they were the last units, apart from HJ, set up and equipped in full before the kit started to run out. They are almost textbook 1944 Gliederung Panzer Divisions, because they were set up and trained in the West, in comparative peaceful conditions. By comparison, "Das Reich", the former "Verfugungsdivision", had a similar organisation to 9SS, in that it had Stugs forming the 7 & 8th companies of the Panzerregiment; and this was a unit with a history as long and as "illustrious" if that is the correct word as LAH. 17SS "Gotz von Berlichingen" was more representative of the late war divisions - it was short of officers and NCO's, and very short of equipment (much of it was of French origin). Despite this it performed creditably, if not spectacularly well.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2011 - 12:20 PM UTC
Steve, I think this is an area that can be debated at length because of two things:

1.) the apparently fragmentary nature of the historical record.
2.) the exigencies of war

Actually, #2 may account for much of #1, though some more historical research is coming out as time goes by. Still, as you say, "the kit was running out," and the Wehrmacht had to make do with whatever was at-hand. The Nazis were very good at weaving their own myths, and the notion that the LSSAH stormed through the Ardennes in 1944 with Tigers and Panthers just isn't supported by the record.

In any case, I think what you've provided is very valuable, and I hope you won't take my kibitzing as anything more than sharpening the valuable stuff you've provide already.
retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:04 PM UTC
Thank all of you for the input. I'm furously saving these bits of information to my SS research.
jrutman
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Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 03:24 AM UTC
For the record,I believe that it wasmy history of the LAH that was posted and not Bills'. Don't want him to take any blame. LOL
An interesting thing about 9th and 10th SS was comments I read from Veterans that lamented that their Divisions had been specifically built and trained to fight the up coming western front invasion but that the demands of the war had them sent to the east in the winter of 43/44 as a fire brigade. So by the time they were sent back to the place that they were created to fight in,causualties had markedly reduced their combat power.
12th SS was created and trained in the West and was ready to fight within hours of the invasion alert. They then fought until the virtual extinctsion of their combat power on that front. The 1stSS was doing a refit in Belgium and was called to assembly ares near the Invasion front but did not engage the Allies until July. This delay remains a mystery as they couldn't train where they were either,but remained concealed in a large forest near the front.
Sorry,didn't mean to go so.
J
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Posted: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 11:20 AM UTC
[quote]

I admit I did forget the Flak Abteilung, which had SDkfz7s pulling the 88mm guns and the other versions with 37mm; and having consulted "Steel Inferno" by Michael Reynolds, it seems LAH did have a Stug Abteilung of 45 Stugs in 3 companies. It also had a Werfer Abteilung of 3 batteries (towing vehicle probably Sdkfz10). But in the main as far as the vehicles are concerned, I wasn't too far out. Reynolds gives 1SS AA a company with 16 Pumas - I'm not totally convinced, as this is a very rare vehicle but I won't argue. He does state that the first two companies had VWs rather than the SDkfz250 halftracks they should have had.

Steve

You mention here about them having other versions with the 37mm.... i am hoping you are refering to some flak 43's?? I have been doing a build with an SWS with Flak 43 and am searching for some units that used them, specifically the non armoured version and kinda hoped that LSSAH would have had some. Can you shed any light on this? You seem to know your stuff.

Cheers
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