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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Some mistakes about BRONCO's M24 Chaffee tank
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 09:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Clearly little evidence has yet been brought forward to consider, and I personally hate these post designed to slate a kit before it''s even on the shelves.
Al


Hi Alan

I agree and disagree with this part of your post.

I to find it annoying, negative and downright childish that when a thread is posted about a forthcoming new release, or kit under development by a manufacturer with images that it's filled with posts saying "hope they make a better job of it than such and such a kit they made" , "why are they making this one and not the one I want ,the XYZ panzerkampfwagen" or "I'll wait for (insert manufacturers name here) kit of it because it'll be much better" even though no examples of any have actually been seen yet.

On the other hand why would manufacturers send details and images to such sites as these if they didn't want feed back of some description. Okay, naturally put aside the stuff I've spoken of above but surely knowing the site is viewed by people passionate about a given subject they must surely know and want to ensure what they are bring to market is correct in all aspects.

Indeed we have seen instances were manufacturers have changed their kits, development plans on the back of comments from modelling web sites. A recent example is the Masterbox Horsa glider.

So its not all bad.

I think in this instance, putting aside the motives of why the original poster started this thread I think there is an issue with the turret roof and I hope Bronco either change it or produce evidence to back up there reasoning for creating it as per the model images.

Alan

AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 10:56 AM UTC
Hi Alan,

Yes, I'd agree. The original post was clearly an attempt to slag off the kit and therefore one would certainly look at the evidence with suspicion.

Different people have seen the issue as minor, major or not an issus for them at all, as I suspect it won't be for many providing the bulk of the kit is in good order.

Threads that are constructive and add useful infomration are excellent, both for the modeller and manufacturer. How that infomration is put across is also important. Other extracts are not and just generally wind people up as they then to take things out of context.

I think there will be some useful data that comes form the thread, if the kit is in plastic form now then any changes are unlikely so it will be for folks to decide to buy or not to buy depending on how they view the issue.

I'm happy to wait until the kit gets reviewed and more data comes to light, as I won't be buying the American version. I'd like to do a British Version when and if it comes along, by which time any issues will have become clearer and no doubt any fixes tried and tested.

If the central focus is on one area it tends to detract from the overall kit and I can think of numerous occasions when this has happened. I'd rather keep an open mind and look at any positive suggestions that come forward to making it, if necessary, better. That's all part of the fun.

Cheers

Al
ChrisDM
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Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 09:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text


On the other hand why would manufacturers send details and images to such sites as these if they didn't want feed back of some description. Okay, naturally put aside the stuff I've spoken of above but surely knowing the site is viewed by people passionate about a given subject they must surely know and want to ensure what they are bring to market is correct in all aspects.

Indeed we have seen instances were manufacturers have changed their kits, development plans on the back of comments from modelling web sites. A recent example is the Masterbox Horsa glider.



I would very strongly doubt that the motivation for announcing new and upcoming releases on sites such as this is to gather feedback

Companies do as much as they are willing to do to ensure accuracy before it gets to the stage of being shown here

The primary reasons for announcing products on Armorama (and other sites) are

firstly to tell modellers that the project is on the way, and so gain publicity for the release (it takes a LOT of telling people before the message really sinks in to the whole market)

secondly, and I think more in the case of companies that like to release CAD drawings as 'news' items; to announce the intent to release something; for sales publicity purposes and the maybe 'warn off' other manufacturers from investing in a project (it happens, two working on the same thing, one might not be that advanced on it and would think twice of investing a lot of money of a
competitor will get there first)


Some companies have responded to comments on here and shanged products, but not many; and frankly once its committed to plastic and the tools cut, most companies could not afford to

And putting it bluntly, a lot of companies might want to seek a qualified expert opinion before accepting the advice of people they don't know on an internet forum with regards to expensive changes to their product in the pursuit of accuracy




As for this particular product; I'd want to hear from a genuine chaffee expert (or at least someone very knowledgable on them) before making a decision on whether that turret roof was correct or not. So far we haven't heard from one. In the absence of that expertise I'll give them the benefit of the doubt personally
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:36 AM UTC
Hi folks,

There is a walkaround of the Bovington Example here on site. No top shots though

https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/3276

I did come across these two pics on line though if they help.





Al
FlakDamage
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 08:20 AM UTC
Remember it is the early Chaffee what the difference between it and later versions. I don't believe Bronco would you do a model that detailed and make that kind of mistake. I love the fact that you guys are arguing about this, its how things get better.
ABRAHAM
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Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 10:11 PM UTC
The reasons why I have a big passion about studying Chaffe tanks are as followed. I was a tank mechanic when I servered in the ROC army, I saw it everyday, with the beautiful body fo the tank, I have great affection for it.perhaps in my first article in the wording is too strong,perhaps this problem for some members’s piece of cake.But my question it really is a problem,and I also provide a lot of photo evidence,not unfounded,I’m also very welcome to participate more photos and disussin,to prove my point of view is wrong,pheraps this is just a exception.




Big-John
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 12:47 AM UTC
All I see is a bunch of red x's
SEDimmick
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 01:17 AM UTC
Looks to me that the only thing you have to remove the weld line to fix it?

alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 01:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks to me that the only thing you have to remove the weld line to fix it?



Hi Scott

If the kit isn't altered by Bronco then I've a feeling that's what most will do.

But if you look Bronco have the front slope of the turret starting at that weld point which if you look at the supplied photos of the real thing the slope starts about 40mm in front of the weld line and has nothing to do with the weld. Not saying its right or wrong, just pointing out what the issue is about.

Alan
afv_rob
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 01:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks to me that the only thing you have to remove the weld line to fix it?



Nope. As Abraham shows (although his pics of the Bronco model aren't clear) the weld isn't really an issue, its the fact that the slope of the front plate starts too far back on Bronco's model. They depict the slope beginning through the front of the ventilator dome, in fact the slope starts just forward of it. So far no one (not even the pics I initially though proved this wrong) has proved that Bronco got it right. It seems to me as well that this issue causes the loaders hatch to be noticeably too large.
Spades
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 06:15 AM UTC
wow,,,im late on this one.......but

HERE WE GO AGAIN !!!

Since the nit-picking has already started. Let it continue.
ABRAHAM
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Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 01:21 PM UTC
Hi John Hale
Please try another browser , like google chrome or firefox .
toadman1
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Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 05:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

well,i just got the kit from shop,but when i open it and use some photos for reference,i'm really disappointed. Its turret and chassis have some seriously problem.




Okay. I just received my kit today from Bronco. Quick disclaimer time first: I did not assist Bronco with the M24 but am assisting them with some future projects.

Now, back to the M24. With regards to the turret issue, after looking at it closely from several angles, it does appear that the weld is where the armor bend is. I don't know how this affects the measurements of the turret roof as I won't be able to measure one for at least a week.

The snaps for the cover over the co-axial machine gun will take you 5 minutes to redo. No big deal here!

Concerning the covers on the hull bottom, the one you have marked "A" is a non-issue. The splash guard that is missing is not present in tech manual photos. To me, that indicates that it was an add on sometime in the production run or during post-war rebuild. If you want to add it, it's another 5 minute job with a bit of scrap plastic. The covers you marked "B" appear flat in the tech manual photos. Again, probably some modifications took place either during the production run or during post-war rebuilds.

I understand your passion for this tank. However, don't let your passion blind you to the realities that Bronco is attempting to depict an early production vehicle. I would imagine that most, if not all of the M24's you worked on in the ROC Army had been rebuilt in the U.S. under MDAP prior to being exported to Taiwan. Of course, that doesn't take into consideration any updates that may have been done during ROC service which could add further differences.

I will be posting photos of the sprues on my blog later on this evening or early tomorrow morning.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
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Ellevenbravo
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Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 03:02 AM UTC
My only question is on the orientation of the gunners sight (or MG port, not sure what it is) on the mantlet. If the Bronco kit really is 90 degrees off, I do see this as a major error that is not easily fixed by the average modeler.

Maybe I missed something on this in the previous 70 posts so if that is the case, accept my apologies. However, if not, please explain how that particular issue can be rectified, short of waiting for an aftermarket resin correction.

Regards,

John
toadman1
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Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 03:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My only question is on the orientation of the gunners sight (or MG port, not sure what it is) on the mantlet. If the Bronco kit really is 90 degrees off, I do see this as a major error that is not easily fixed by the average modeler.

Maybe I missed something on this in the previous 70 posts so if that is the case, accept my apologies. However, if not, please explain how that particular issue can be rectified, short of waiting for an aftermarket resin correction.

Regards,

John


The only issue on the mantlet was the positioning of the snaps for the co-axial machine gun port cover. Each of the 6 pins needs to be moved per the diagram provided by Abraham.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
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Ellevenbravo
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Posted: Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 03:24 AM UTC
Ok.... my bad.

It looked from that picture that the opening was oval shaped and the Bronco version was oriented incorrectly. The snaps are a much easier fix.

Brad-M
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Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 05:27 AM UTC
All I want to to know is where is the 1/35 scale figure of Sgt Guffy (Telly Savalas) to go with my new Bronco Chaffee!

Cheers
Brad
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 05:20 AM UTC
My 2 cents worth. The bullet splash guard around the ventilator, which is the main point of contention, was not present on some M24's, as per the pics. It looks like the ventilator itself is almost in the proper position, but Bronco added the splash guard as an afterthought and it interferred with the bend line. I think a quick fix would be to remove the splash guard altogether, as it wasn't always present, and move the ventilator cover back one or two millimeters. Of course some filling and sanding will probably be involved. This might solve the problem, or at least make it less evident.
Mees76
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 06:43 AM UTC
ok.. let me throw another 2 cents on the discussion...
Judging by the pictures, I have to concur with Rob Harvey. I believe (IMHO) that the biggest problem here is the angle and length of the turret´s front sloped section. If Bronco made the armor bend (the top of the sloping section) coincide with the weld line (and closer to the cupola), that means that the sloping section is too long (a good reference is the small welded square, just in front of the cupola - the bend should start just ahead of it, and not where it´s represented on the kit); therefore, the angle is too shallow. That would affect the measurements of the turret roof, and of the angles in the turret sides and roof.
If this error does exist, it´s clearly not just a matter of removing the weld line or the splash guard... it would be necessary to redo the frontal part of the turret. Not impossible, but...
It´s interesting to note that the old Italeri kit, although much less detailed, got this detail right.
russamotto
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 09:01 AM UTC
I'm almost finished with the build of this kit for review. The only siginficant issues I can see are those mentioned, being the weld along the bend and the snaps around the coaxial MG. The splash guard around the roof ventilator is identified for removal in the instructions for the early type. Other than that, the etch for the transmission bulges says to place a 10* on both bulges. The fret is missing a 1. I noticed on the photos Chris Hughes posted that his fret is missing the 1 as well, likewise from Terry Ashley's post over at PMMS the 1 is missing. Not a major problem as it is the worst, smallest piece of etch I have ever tried to place. I'm hoping to have the build finished this weekend, if I can get some time at the bench.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:39 AM UTC
My plan for that missing *1* on the PE fret is just use a sliver of plastic. Either way, the whole casting number will be covered with some Mr. Surfacer, so it look the part just fine.
alanmac
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 09:28 PM UTC
Hi

As I understand it, having read on another site, that Bronco are to correct the error regarding the bend and slope position on the turret for future releases. I can't remember which site as I visit a few but I believe the person has regular contact with Bronco so it sounds genuine.

If they put the corrected turret in later manufacturing runs of this kit I doubt, just like other manufacturers, they'll indicate it as such so it'll be pot luck.

Nice to hear they are responding to this issue though.

Alan
tanknick22
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


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Well this guy probably works for AFV Club, but whatever. I wouldn't call that turret line issue a 'minor problem', that looks pretty major to me and quite difficult to correct. This isn't a problem for me because I have zero interest in this kit, but i'm sure a lot of people will find that troublesome.


Hi Rob well you're not interested and neither am I, although i'm happy that a new kit of a famous subject finally has finally been made
maybe abraham is wrong about the kit i was looking at my italeri chaffee and the turret is the same as broncos and the rivit counter are the cause of the price of kits to skyrocket

But anyway I'd like to know why do you think it would be a problem?

It seems to me that sanding away the weld seam could be enough to correct it...Correcting the corner would be a problem, but honestly it seems to me in the right position...

so what do you mean ?

Cheers


If you look closely at the pictures posted and also the previous news report you will notice that the weld line is also the point at which the turret slopes at an angle forward. Looking at the the actual turret picture the slope line is clearly just in front of the ventilator dome. You can see also that as a result of this error the loaders hatch on the Bronco kit looks too big compared to the real thing.

I hope you see what I mean, look at the photo of the actual turret Abraham posted initially (the bottom one) and then the Bronco turret:

barkingdigger
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm almost finished with the build of this kit for review.


Hey Russ,

That's music to my ears! Can't wait to see the review,

Tom

(I have the kit on order...)
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm almost finished with the build of this kit for review.


Hey Russ,

That's music to my ears! Can't wait to see the review,

Tom

(I have the kit on order...)


Indeed, I'm definitely interested in hearing folks' real build reviews. I'm leading our local AMPS club build of the Chaffee kit this year, but we won't be starting until after AMPS Nationals, so I've got time to put together a good 'plan of action'.
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