Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 06:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Gino, feel free to correct me here, but most of the vehicles from the State side units are/were painted in theater and the paint can wear quickly. This is especially true of GW1 stuff that was painted quickly in theater. Light coats were applied and from sand, rain, fuel, and the crews movements on and off paint was "scuffed" or chipped, if you will, easily and regularly.
For ODS ('90-'91), this is true. For vehicles in OIF ('03-'11), it is not. OIF vehicles were brought over with the CARC paint from stateside and were not repainted in theatre. CARC is a very hearty paint and does not chip easily. M1A2 SEPs are not that old and they are regularly repainted. Most modern US armor does not show much wear to the paint.
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
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Showcase
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 07:06 AM UTC
I do appreciate all the responses guys. Since the overall feeling is that it has way to much contrast I toned it down a bit. I put some really thin carc sand into the brush and gave the turret a light misting. This seems to have helped by tying the colors together. I also lightened some of the harsher shadows. It still has contrast but not as much. I'll post some photos later. Maybe this technique isn't made for modern vehicles. Oh well.
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 07:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
2)
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I personally feel that's inapropriate for most modern armor in general (esp for tanks like the M1A2 sep which usually are very well maintained.)
Max, I am gonna disagree with you here. From my experience even if the vehicle was well maintained there is still, let's call it "scufing" that occurs from the crew climbing on and off the vehicle and just random 'weathering'. Gino, feel free to correct me here, but most of the vehicles from the State side units are/were painted in theater and the paint can wear quickly. This is especially true of GW1 stuff that was painted quickly in theater. Light coats were applied and from sand, rain, fuel, and the crews movements on and off paint was "scuffed" or chipped, if you will, easily and regularly.
I know that in 1994 when I began a project to model my track from DS I was trying to figure out how to model that scuffing that I saw on my vehicle even after being in theater for only 4 months. But again, I am no expert, but am just going off my own observations and experience.
.
Damon,
yeah, there are modern tanks that show heavy chipping, I don't doubt that but it's not the norm...
as for ODS armor, there apply different rules as those tanks have been repainted in kuwait in non-carc colors, hence the heavy chipping... same goes for british armor in OIF but not for the regular M1A2 SEP...
as for scruffing along the turret front and esp. on the anti slip textures it appears more sort of a translucent effect... something best achieved by dry-brushing and not chipping...
Cheers, Max
Washington, United States
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 08:06 AM UTC
Max;
as Gino pointed out I stand incorrect, so no worries, I am glad that we have people like your self and Gino that actually DO know about these things as it keeps the rest of us informed. It was my understanding that many of the units the originally were fielded for OIF were either from stores that were in position in Saudi or shipping over from the states and again painted in theater, but looks like that is not the case.
One followup question as I am new to this whole modulation and "new" technique, but chipping and drybrushing are achieving the same results in what we are talking about, correct? Is there some variation of degrees that I am missing. Again, I have little knowledge of this and what I recently thought of as a "chipping effect" was done with a dry brushing style, only because I felt I had less controll with the sponge.
Max, feel free to shoot me a PM as you seem to be a lot more versed in this than I am I would love to learn a bit more. Cheers.
On the workbench:
Trumpeter Faun SLT 56
Tamiya A- 10 1/48
Academy 1/700 USS KITTY HAWK
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 09:58 AM UTC
no problemo, Gino just posted his comment while I was still typing
well, all in all, when it's not an abrams I'm pretty clueless...
Cheers, Max
Connecticut, United States
Joined: March 24, 2007
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 03:40 PM UTC
Dave,
There are a few ways to tackle bringing the colors together and making the transitions smooth.
One way is to mist an extremely thin and transparent coat of the middle tone used in the CM.
Another way -or- in addition to the above mentioned, is to use oil or enamel filters. I would suggest ours ( AK ) but it seems some folks are a bit testy on this thread and I do not want to give the impression of self promotion. That said, our enamel filters would be the fastest and easiest way for you to get a handle on using filters. From there you can begin to experiment with oils to adjust your base colors on a more micro level for specific areas.
Possibly you could use oils for your filters as well. You want to use the umbers & siennas but you can truly use any colors you want. Use the darker colors in the lower shaddow areas & the lighter colors on the upper surfaces. Be sure to use very thin paints for your filters 95% thinner -to- 5% color. If you have painted the under side of your hull, you can use this area to test your filter colors to see how they will adjust your base colors. You can also use a piece of evergreen card stock to do some experiments as well. In this way you can really get into it and experiment all you like with out running the risk of ruining your current project. You can cut a square sheet, airbrush your color grade from one side to the other -or- top to bottom. Once dry, give it a clear satin. Once dry, go nuts with the filters and experiments! A satin is important becasue the tooth of a flat paint will hold the filters to much and not allow you to work with them as much.
This is a realy good conversation here. I am glad that Armorama provides us with an environment for growth and the opportunity to learn from one another!
Iain Hamilton
www.migjimenez.com
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 04:05 PM UTC
Me too Iain. Doesn't seem like modern armor subjects or people beginning in this hobby are very popular on other sites. This seems to be the only site where people respond to my threads.
I ended up going in with the middle tone, which was Vallejo Sand, and lightly misted it and it looks much better. I'll post some more photos when I can.
I went to AK Interactive USA and tried to order the DAK set but it was out of stock. I saw washes but not filters sold seperately. I know people are sensitive for some reason but its my thread and I'm asking you directly, what AK products do you recommend? I want to use them because I have the FAQ2 book coming (still haven't gotten a ship notice from you by the way
). Thanks for your help.
Connecticut, United States
Joined: March 24, 2007
KitMaker: 317 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 05:04 PM UTC
Dave,
All FAQII orders will go out by Monday if it is the last thing I do! LOL. Thank you for your patients.
As for filters, the first one I would reach for is the DAK filter. The NATO Filter would also work well on the areas were you would like darker tones. The other option is to take any of our washes and thin them down a bit to use as a filter. This little trick enables you to use any color you like! Not just those that are already thinned to about the correct ratio for a filter.
Iain Hamilton
www.migjimenez.com
Illinois, United States
Joined: March 29, 2009
KitMaker: 1,135 posts
Armorama: 1,030 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 02:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Dave,
All FAQII orders will go out by Monday if it is the last thing I do! LOL. Thank you for your patients.
As for filters, the first one I would reach for is the DAK filter. The NATO Filter would also work well on the areas were you would like darker tones. The other option is to take any of our washes and thin them down a bit to use as a filter. This little trick enables you to use any color you like! Not just those that are already thinned to about the correct ratio for a filter.
Got mine yesterday so thanks Iain!
Currently taking back the fight to beat modeling ADD
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 04:35 AM UTC
Washington, United States
Joined: September 21, 2010
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Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 04:44 AM UTC
Dave;
looks good to me, much more homogenous with out the significant variations between light and shadow. I think once you add the weathering it will all be tied together, but again I am no expert on this style (or any other for that matter). Cheers.
On the workbench:
Trumpeter Faun SLT 56
Tamiya A- 10 1/48
Academy 1/700 USS KITTY HAWK
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefEngland - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 04:59 AM UTC
Dave as I understand it you need to remove the mud scrapper on the drive wheels as they are no longer used. However this looks a great model well done.
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 05:08 AM UTC
way better!
still haven't corrected the square wind sensor, eh?
one question though, what's that stuff on the upper right rear section? looks like maskol or something from here?
Cheers, Max
Texas, United States
Joined: September 04, 2010
KitMaker: 289 posts
Armorama: 257 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 06:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Dave as I understand it you need to remove the mud scrapper on the drive wheels as they are no longer used. However this looks a great model well done.
don't want to hijack the thread but...
When did they stop using them? USMC and army?
Thanks!
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Armed Forces Europe, United States
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 09:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
don't want to hijack the thread but...
When did they stop using them? USMC and army?
Thanks!
Hi Aaron,
I can tell you from my days on the M1A1 (in the 90ties) that crews had to remove the mud scrapper to get the whole drive sprocket off. Since most tankers I know believed that they were useless anyway you just left them off. Out of this habit I would say that they would have been deleted from production starting with the A2's and AIM's, the cover-plates were already available from the depot around 1996-97 so far I can recall.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Christopher
" He who seeks to defend everything, defends nothing " Frederick the Great
Texas, United States
Joined: September 04, 2010
KitMaker: 289 posts
Armorama: 257 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
don't want to hijack the thread but...
When did they stop using them? USMC and army?
Thanks!
Hi Aaron,
I can tell you from my days on the M1A1 (in the 90ties) that crews had to remove the mud scrapper to get the whole drive sprocket off. Since most tankers I know believed that they were useless anyway you just left them off. Out of this habit I would say that they would have been deleted from production starting with the A2's and AIM's, the cover-plates were already available from the depot around 1996-97 so far I can recall.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Christopher
thanks for the info!
My ShapeWays Designer Page
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 05:25 AM UTC
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 05:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Oh, Max, what is the wind sensor? The thing sticking up out of the back of the turret? Here are some photos guys. Thought and suggestions are most welcome.
exactly
don't worry about the contrast, it still looks like there's a lot of depth there. if you want to enhance the contrast though (I'd do after the washings) you can use oils (a light sand color for the highs and maybe some dark brown-grey for the shadows). slightly thin 'em, brush on, let set for 'bout 5-10 min (depending on how much thinner and which colors you use) and then fade it using a flat brush only slightly moistened with white spirits or odorless turpentine...
looks like the filter you've applied really darkened things, if you have a look at some references you can see that the CARC sand color is really light, therefore you might want to brighten it up a little more so you'll have some 'space' for further darker weathering (streaks and splashes of grimey stuff...)
Cheers, Max
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 05:59 AM UTC
Thanks Max. How do you recommend brightening it up?
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 10:32 AM UTC
well, you can either go by airbrush, or by brush...
for brightening stuff (well, color corrections in general)by airbrush I usually do what I'd call sort of an "acrylic filtering".
just load your airbrush with plain thinners (or water if you use vallejos), then, carefully add some of your initial base color (you can use a toothpick or a small brush for that, I mostly use tamyias for that) so that if you spray onto some white surface the white will only slightly change color but still stay white... (with light colors like buff you can use a higher color to thinner ratio but other than that it's the same procedure) then slightly mist the surfaces, that'll tone the surfaces to your liking whilst the effects already applied would stay in place. as far as CM is concerned you can vary the tones so you'll emphase the lights and shadows on your model. e.g. a light sand for the highlights, some medium sand for the mids and a mix of dark grey or brown with a medium sand color for the shadows...
for doing that by brush, use oil colors, like I explained in my last post. it'll may be enough just using some light sand oil color(s) for the upper and vertical surfaces (only where light would fall in) as the shadows already look quite nice...
Cheers, Max
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 07:45 AM UTC
Well, here is where the turret is currently. I used some AK Interactive filters, namely the DAK Filter along with some of the NATO Filter. I used their DAK Wash for a pin wash around the various details. I then mixed Unbleached Titanium and Gold Ocher oil paints and used them to pick out some detail and lighten some areas. I used Vallejo Satin Airbrush paint to seal the various steps. Once done i used AK's different streaking grimes and their rain streaks for some more weathering.
I made the CIP panels on the front of the turret with .05 plastic card and Tamiya tape. Hopefully they are the right size. They look ok to me.
The finish may be too dark and i realize it may be too weathered but I'm just having fun with this and trying new things. I haven't done a model of any kind in 8 years so this is practice and if it turns out nice that's an added bonus. SO far i do like how it looks, even though it may not be totally accurate.
Any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome.
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 09:20 AM UTC
looking good!
the chipping might be a little too heavy, but as you stated it's a practice build I think that's nothing to worry about...
all in all I don't think the colors got too dark actually... you might also wanna try making the streaks more intense and paint on some splashes (random dots I mean) using some of the ak streaking products, like you did on the lrd's side stowage box... also don't forget to weather the bustle racks they still look a little too fresh...
Cheers, Max
California, United States
Joined: October 01, 2011
KitMaker: 96 posts
Armorama: 95 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 02:34 PM UTC
Diesko
Looks good. I dont think the chiping is to excessive. Looks good to me.
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 08, 2003
KitMaker: 124 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 06:22 PM UTC
Croatia Hrvatska
Joined: November 05, 2011
KitMaker: 160 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 08:04 PM UTC
Great model, especially with weathering!!!
