Яusso-Soviэt Forum: Cold War Soviet Armor
For discussions related to cold war era Russo-Soviet armor.
New aftermarket sets for Zvezda's T-90
krasnov
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Distrito Federal, Mexico
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 02:01 AM UTC
Hi

I also like the Zvezda kit a lot, and its better to fit some issues than fit the same issues on the miniarm conversion for the tamiya, simply the kit seems like a T-90 and have very good fit and detail, just the mesh is the thing I dont like, and compared with other trumpeter and tamiya kits well all have probles if you look for them, for the sets seems interesting but the price of the sets will be the nightmare, I think just to have the tracks to do a parade version , and hope miniarm send alone the engine exhaust for the old conversions of T-90.

regards
101yann
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 02:57 AM UTC

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Quoted Text



That's a legitimate question and here's what I think is an equally legitimate answer : time !... or rather the lack of time. I can devote very few hours a week to building (and painting) kits only.

Now anyone can choose to build it from the box and be happy with it as it still will look impressive enough, but close examination of the real thing makes it obvious it is either way too simplified or plain wrong in most areas.




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As it happens, I'm one of those sad modellers who like their models to look right and not just from a distance.



Hmm sounds like your double talking to me...you state you have limited time, but yet you want a really accurate model that takes time to do so..even with a "perfect" kit

If that make you happy...all the more power to you.

but at the same time you don't need to slag off on a kit because it doesn't meet your self imposed standards...



I'm not sure I understand what you mean to say: in my experience, and again that of many other modellers I know, a reasonably accurate kit does NOT necessarily have to be hard to assemble, nor does it need to have too many parts. Examples abound. I'm sorry if you never came across one... 

As for a « perfect » kit, I would refrain from refering to « perfection » myself since I'd have a hard time defining it. And again I never alluded to perfection in my posts. Curious to know what you felt compelled to bring this up ??? Another confused interpretation of yours ?

Also, if you had read what I posted in toto, you would have noticed that I ackowledged the fact that the quality of Zvezda 's tooling has IMPROVED a lot (do capitals help here ?), so it's not as though I'm slagging off the kit entirely.

As for my standards, FYI they are essentially based on my study of the real tank or vehicle I intend to model (walkaround photos, or my own survey if I'm lucky to have access to it), as well as what I know can be achieved by plastic kit manufacturers these days and the current technology, ressources and references available. And I think that this is a rather sound and respectable approach, certainly not worthy of your sarcasm.
101yann
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 03:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Great news, thanks for posting. Any clues as to the relase date ?

In terms of accuracy, Zvezda 's kit is a disaster, so
these sets will definitely be useful.
All we need now is a correct replacement hull

At least we should be grateful to Zvezda for one thing : they prompted Miniarm to revise and improve their own parts!




I'm sorry Yann, but that's just funny. You don't know what a disaster in accuracy is. Zvezda's accuracy issues are modest, at worst.

In any event Yann, it's your hobby too I suppose, but in practice I've seldom seen modelers who obsess about accuracy in a kit actually finish one, let alone to the lofty standards they expect from the kit they start with.

And if you don't have the time, perhaps you might consider commissioning the work out? I'm available, I'll do it for a thousand euros excluding material costs.



So I don't know what a disaster in accuracy is ?... Well OK, that's a point of view.
But then again I wonder what to make of this 60+ page collection of corrections just for for this kit alone ?!!
http://panzer35.ru/forum/45-8059-1
(text is all Russian but the many pics speak for themselves)

You still think this is « funny » and that this kit has « MODEST accuracy issues » ???
Then I have to wonder why correcting some of those issues require having to cut off the d.... hull ?! Or why there are so MANY areas to correct ?!
Or again why the heck did Miniarm bother to produce a COMPLETE corrected turret for Zvezda's kit (not to mention all the other loose bits like wheels, gun barrel, ERA blocks etc) ?
Madmen no doubt...
Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???


Your attitude, and that of some of other posters (is there a convention of bruised egos on Armorama these days?) is so typical : just because the kit looks impressive and has never been done in styrene mean that it must be praised and any form of critique or dissent, however harsh and valid, has to be fought and repressed. The thought police is at work again hey !

At this stage, it may be interesting to point out that critizing a kit has NOTHING to do with criticizing those who choose to build it from the box. Is this clear enough or subtext is needed ?
Yet reading some of the comments above, things get blurred and confused in some people's minds. Or do I detect a clinical case of paranoia in some of the posts above ?

Like it or not, I for one have no time for political correctness or herd mentality. A kit has to be judged on its OWN merit, not on the fact that it exists alone, and that it is plastic and not resin.

As for your offer, if your modelling skills are on par with your reasoning, I don't think I will take you up on it, even if that was for a mere10 €.
However, I'm just curious to know : have you ever been offered cash to keep quiet ?...
Then again, you know what they say, sometimes silence is golden.

PS : this thread was started by someone who kindly posted about upcoming AM sets for Zvezda's T-90 kit.
Therefore, isn't it a bit strange that those who are quite happy to build the kit from the box (and do not wish to purchase any of those sets) feel the urge of adding their two cents here ?
Are they masochists, or just happy to argue for the sake of it ?
Karl187
#284
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 03:34 AM UTC
Yann- you have some interesting points in there, but dial down the attitude, we don't need nor want angry arguments or flame wars- the mods can shut the thread if things get too out of hand in these situations. I'm quite sure you are capable of putting your points across in a more civil manner.
ejasonk
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:37 AM UTC
The RB T-72 does not fit for a T-90A, there are differences in the anti-heat cover.
Spiderfrommars
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Joined: July 13, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???



You have major flaws when dimensions and shape are wrong and hard to correct. Maybe you've already done a Skif kit...well those are "disasters"

Regarding the Russian blog which you has posted, well I've seen it.
It seems that the main flaws are the lack of a ring at the base of the turret and the slightly wrong dimension of engine grills. I might be wrong but the other tweaks can be considered as improvments rather than corrections.

Anyway, as I told you before, I respect your point of view, but I don't agree

Cheers

PS I've never done a kit strictly OOB
SEDimmick
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 08:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So I don't know what a disaster in accuracy is ?... Well OK, that's a point of view.
But then again I wonder what to make of this 60+ page collection of corrections just for for this kit alone ?!!
http://panzer35.ru/forum/45-8059-1
(text is all Russian but the many pics speak for themselves)

You still think this is « funny » and that this kit has « MODEST accuracy issues » ???
Then I have to wonder why correcting some of those issues require having to cut off the d.... hull ?! Or why there are so MANY areas to correct ?!
Or again why the heck did Miniarm bother to produce a COMPLETE corrected turret for Zvezda's kit (not to mention all the other loose bits like wheels, gun barrel, ERA blocks etc) ?
Madmen no doubt...
Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???



I have that thread bookmarked and read through it (with a translator) and seriously...I know one of the complaints about the kit was the difference of having a 13mm vs 15mm bolt in 1/35 scale! Are you kidding me?

As for Miniarm...they do nice stuff (I have several $100s of dollars of their stuff in my stash), but at the same time they are a business and a business is supposed to make money.

There is a build on here showing the Zveada turret and Miniarm turrets built up...and outside of minor issues that, at least in my book aren't worth fixing, they are virtually identical to one another.

I guess it all boils down to time and money...the Zveada T-90 is very good kit that is about 90-95% accurate at a decent price and an easier build then doing a conversion from the Tamiya T-72 kit.

You state you have limited time and the Zveada kit is grossly inaccurate in your eyes....but yet faced with alternatives...you'd spend even more time and money either correcting it or using the Tamiya kit with the Miniarm conversions. Thats what I don't get....

The Zevada T-90 kit isn't like a Skif T-64 kit (Ask me about that...I gave up Armor modelling for 2-3 years because of that beast)



system
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 08:56 AM UTC
I have to admit I've been a little bemused by some of the criticisms of the Zvezda kit. Possibly it's out of ignorance - I'm no T-90 expert - but some of the nitpicks don't see to square with reference photos. For example, the reinforced hull roof around the driver's hatch: I've squinted at a lot of T-90 pictures since the kit's release and I've seen pictures of welded-turret T-90s both with and without. Likewise (I think) with the additional exhaust cover.

Isn't it possible that these mods were introduced progressively?
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 09:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have that thread bookmarked and read through it (with a translator) and seriously...I know one of the complaints about the kit was the difference of having a 13mm vs 15mm bolt in 1/35 scale! Are you kidding me?



junglejim
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 12:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Yann- you have some interesting points in there, but dial down the attitude, we don't need nor want angry arguments or flame wars- the mods can shut the thread if things get too out of hand in these situations. I'm quite sure you are capable of putting your points across in a more civil manner.





His tone? Actually I think he's been quite reasonable and civil, compared to some other posters; seems like he's just defending himself. It's the same old argument between the 'goodenuffs' and the 'rivet counters', each has their own view, no need to call them out on it. FWIW I have the kit and will probably build it OOB, but certainly can see where Yann's coming from.

Jim
Rivet Counter and proud of it!
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 06:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It's the same old argument between the 'goodenuffs' and the 'rivet counters', each has their own view, no need to call them out on it. FWIW I have the kit and will probably build it OOB, but certainly can see where Yann's coming from.

Jim
Rivet Counter and proud of it!



Well Jim, me too I think I am a rivet counter (and sometime I'm not so proud because my builds tend to be to long indeed)
I think the matter is a different opinion about the kit.
Anyway, I think we should stop to argue.
Everyone has their own way of seeing things

Cheers
lukiftian
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Joined: March 12, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 07:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Great news, thanks for posting. Any clues as to the relase date ?

In terms of accuracy, Zvezda 's kit is a disaster, so
these sets will definitely be useful.
All we need now is a correct replacement hull

At least we should be grateful to Zvezda for one thing : they prompted Miniarm to revise and improve their own parts!




I'm sorry Yann, but that's just funny. You don't know what a disaster in accuracy is. Zvezda's accuracy issues are modest, at worst.

In any event Yann, it's your hobby too I suppose, but in practice I've seldom seen modelers who obsess about accuracy in a kit actually finish one, let alone to the lofty standards they expect from the kit they start with.

And if you don't have the time, perhaps you might consider commissioning the work out? I'm available, I'll do it for a thousand euros excluding material costs.



So I don't know what a disaster in accuracy is ?... Well OK, that's a point of view.
But then again I wonder what to make of this 60+ page collection of corrections just for for this kit alone ?!!
http://panzer35.ru/forum/45-8059-1
(text is all Russian but the many pics speak for themselves)

You still think this is « funny » and that this kit has « MODEST accuracy issues » ???
Then I have to wonder why correcting some of those issues require having to cut off the d.... hull ?! Or why there are so MANY areas to correct ?!
Or again why the heck did Miniarm bother to produce a COMPLETE corrected turret for Zvezda's kit (not to mention all the other loose bits like wheels, gun barrel, ERA blocks etc) ?
Madmen no doubt...
Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???


Your attitude, and that of some of other posters (is there a convention of bruised egos on Armorama these days?) is so typical : just because the kit looks impressive and has never been done in styrene mean that it must be praised and any form of critique or dissent, however harsh and valid, has to be fought and repressed. The thought police is at work again hey !

At this stage, it may be interesting to point out that critizing a kit has NOTHING to do with criticizing those who choose to build it from the box. Is this clear enough or subtext is needed ?
Yet reading some of the comments above, things get blurred and confused in some people's minds. Or do I detect a clinical case of paranoia in some of the posts above ?

Like it or not, I for one have no time for political correctness or herd mentality. A kit has to be judged on its OWN merit, not on the fact that it exists alone, and that it is plastic and not resin.

As for your offer, if your modelling skills are on par with your reasoning, I don't think I will take you up on it, even if that was for a mere10 €.
However, I'm just curious to know : have you ever been offered cash to keep quiet ?...
Then again, you know what they say, sometimes silence is golden.

PS : this thread was started by someone who kindly posted about upcoming AM sets for Zvezda's T-90 kit.
Therefore, isn't it a bit strange that those who are quite happy to build the kit from the box (and do not wish to purchase any of those sets) feel the urge of adding their two cents here ?
Are they masochists, or just happy to argue for the sake of it ?



Yann I believe your hobby is looking for faults and trying to prove to everyone that you're right, not building models, at least as far as I can see.
No one here is doubting that you're right, we'll give you that benefit but for the 99% who purchase this kit and actually get around to building it... Yann...they and I believe that the kit is good enough, that the modifications required to improve it are minimal, and that new turrets and hulls probably won't sell very well. I was in favour of the padded tracks, these are important. A good barrel would be welcome. And of course for those who require it, PE screens and perhaps a small PE sheet for other things those very few modelers might feel they require.
As for your accusation that we are hijacking this thread, the individuals interested in selling us merchandise were looking for feedback, and they have received it-- and they received a debate as to whether these products are even necessary. What more could they ask for? I'd add I was also the first to answer on this thread, not you, so you can be quiet. If anyone is a thread hijacker here, you are.
lukiftian
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 07:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???



You have major flaws when dimensions and shape are wrong and hard to correct. Maybe you've already done a Skif kit...well those are "disasters"

Regarding the Russian blog which you has posted, well I've seen it.
It seems that the main flaws are the lack of a ring at the base of the turret and the slightly wrong dimension of engine grills. I might be wrong but the other tweaks can be considered as improvments rather than corrections.

Anyway, as I told you before, I respect your point of view, but I don't agree

Cheers

PS I've never done a kit strictly OOB



Hmmm, lack of a turret ring? That could qualify as a bit of work, maybe an extra night. Good point Mauro
lukiftian
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 07:44 PM UTC
However, I'm just curious to know : have you ever been offered cash to keep quiet ?...

Not around here, but if you're offering!!! SURE!

That one made my whole day Yannman, thanks
MINIARM
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 09:24 PM UTC
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 09:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmmm, lack of a turret ring? That could qualify as a bit of work, maybe an extra night. Good point Mauro



...One night if you don't have a compass cutter...otherwise about half an hour extra
Karl187
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 11:49 PM UTC
Personally speaking I hope Miniarm are thinking of releasing a larger set to convert the tank to the T-90M specifications- that would really be cool.

As for these arguments- I see it this way: if it makes you happy to do it a certain way then do that- simple.
101yann
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 07:16 AM UTC

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Great news, thanks for posting. Any clues as to the relase date ?

In terms of accuracy, Zvezda 's kit is a disaster, so
these sets will definitely be useful.
All we need now is a correct replacement hull

At least we should be grateful to Zvezda for one thing : they prompted Miniarm to revise and improve their own parts!




I'm sorry Yann, but that's just funny. You don't know what a disaster in accuracy is. Zvezda's accuracy issues are modest, at worst.

In any event Yann, it's your hobby too I suppose, but in practice I've seldom seen modelers who obsess about accuracy in a kit actually finish one, let alone to the lofty standards they expect from the kit they start with.

And if you don't have the time, perhaps you might consider commissioning the work out? I'm available, I'll do it for a thousand euros excluding material costs.



So I don't know what a disaster in accuracy is ?... Well OK, that's a point of view.
But then again I wonder what to make of this 60+ page collection of corrections just for for this kit alone ?!!
http://panzer35.ru/forum/45-8059-1
(text is all Russian but the many pics speak for themselves)

You still think this is « funny » and that this kit has « MODEST accuracy issues » ???
Then I have to wonder why correcting some of those issues require having to cut off the d.... hull ?! Or why there are so MANY areas to correct ?!
Or again why the heck did Miniarm bother to produce a COMPLETE corrected turret for Zvezda's kit (not to mention all the other loose bits like wheels, gun barrel, ERA blocks etc) ?
Madmen no doubt...
Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???


Your attitude, and that of some of other posters (is there a convention of bruised egos on Armorama these days?) is so typical : just because the kit looks impressive and has never been done in styrene mean that it must be praised and any form of critique or dissent, however harsh and valid, has to be fought and repressed. The thought police is at work again hey !

At this stage, it may be interesting to point out that critizing a kit has NOTHING to do with criticizing those who choose to build it from the box. Is this clear enough or subtext is needed ?
Yet reading some of the comments above, things get blurred and confused in some people's minds. Or do I detect a clinical case of paranoia in some of the posts above ?

Like it or not, I for one have no time for political correctness or herd mentality. A kit has to be judged on its OWN merit, not on the fact that it exists alone, and that it is plastic and not resin.

As for your offer, if your modelling skills are on par with your reasoning, I don't think I will take you up on it, even if that was for a mere10 €.
However, I'm just curious to know : have you ever been offered cash to keep quiet ?...
Then again, you know what they say, sometimes silence is golden.

PS : this thread was started by someone who kindly posted about upcoming AM sets for Zvezda's T-90 kit.
Therefore, isn't it a bit strange that those who are quite happy to build the kit from the box (and do not wish to purchase any of those sets) feel the urge of adding their two cents here ?
Are they masochists, or just happy to argue for the sake of it ?



Yann I believe your hobby is looking for faults and trying to prove to everyone that you're right, not building models, at least as far as I can see.
No one here is doubting that you're right, we'll give you that benefit but for the 99% who purchase this kit and actually get around to building it... Yann...they and I believe that the kit is good enough, that the modifications required to improve it are minimal, and that new turrets and hulls probably won't sell very well. I was in favour of the padded tracks, these are important. A good barrel would be welcome. And of course for those who require it, PE screens and perhaps a small PE sheet for other things those very few modelers might feel they require.
As for your accusation that we are hijacking this thread, the individuals interested in selling us merchandise were looking for feedback, and they have received it-- and they received a debate as to whether these products are even necessary. What more could they ask for? I'd add I was also the first to answer on this thread, not you, so you can be quiet. If anyone is a thread hijacker here, you are.



Look, I'm not interested in a pissing contest.
This degenerated only when I had to cope with sarcastic remarks that weren't called for. English may be (very) distant second language to me, I don't like being laughed at and ridiculed particularly when it's coming from someone who has yet to prove he's done his homework on the subject.

OK, some people didn't like the word "disaster" ? Fine, just get over it. Or go back and check the photos in that Russian blog to see if you can see the forest for the trees...
Bottomline is that while you and others may think that this kit is great, I (and a few others) have every right to think otherwise.
If that bozo from "Merryland" believes that this Zvezda kit is next best thing since sliced bread, more power to him. Only now Zvezda won't have to worry about improving their next product. Why should they, almost eveyone out there loves the new kit! Who wins in the end, huh?
Well maybe Meng will...

I've been long enough in this hobby to know that such manufacturers like Dragon have come a looooong way and if it wasn't for the feedback, often very CRITICAL, and the subsequent assistance by dedicated modellers and/or researchers to improve their products, we might never have gotten great kits like the M1A1/A2 series, or their Tigers Panthers, StuGs etc... that are light years ahead of what Zvezda is currently coming out with.

I've had enough of this nonsense now as this discussion isn't getting anywhere.
I have a beer in one hand, a fag in the other and I shall be magnanimous and you or anyone else may have the last word on this.

101yann
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text




Igor, any chance of some more higher res pics ?
Also, when do you plan to ship the news sets ?

Thanks in advance
lukiftian
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 09:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Great news, thanks for posting. Any clues as to the relase date ?

In terms of accuracy, Zvezda 's kit is a disaster, so
these sets will definitely be useful.
All we need now is a correct replacement hull

At least we should be grateful to Zvezda for one thing : they prompted Miniarm to revise and improve their own parts!




I'm sorry Yann, but that's just funny. You don't know what a disaster in accuracy is. Zvezda's accuracy issues are modest, at worst.

In any event Yann, it's your hobby too I suppose, but in practice I've seldom seen modelers who obsess about accuracy in a kit actually finish one, let alone to the lofty standards they expect from the kit they start with.

And if you don't have the time, perhaps you might consider commissioning the work out? I'm available, I'll do it for a thousand euros excluding material costs.



So I don't know what a disaster in accuracy is ?... Well OK, that's a point of view.
But then again I wonder what to make of this 60+ page collection of corrections just for for this kit alone ?!!
http://panzer35.ru/forum/45-8059-1
(text is all Russian but the many pics speak for themselves)

You still think this is « funny » and that this kit has « MODEST accuracy issues » ???
Then I have to wonder why correcting some of those issues require having to cut off the d.... hull ?! Or why there are so MANY areas to correct ?!
Or again why the heck did Miniarm bother to produce a COMPLETE corrected turret for Zvezda's kit (not to mention all the other loose bits like wheels, gun barrel, ERA blocks etc) ?
Madmen no doubt...
Someone else spoke of « minor flaws » too. Well I hate to think what « major flaws » or « huge accuracy issues » would be in your books, then ???


Your attitude, and that of some of other posters (is there a convention of bruised egos on Armorama these days?) is so typical : just because the kit looks impressive and has never been done in styrene mean that it must be praised and any form of critique or dissent, however harsh and valid, has to be fought and repressed. The thought police is at work again hey !

At this stage, it may be interesting to point out that critizing a kit has NOTHING to do with criticizing those who choose to build it from the box. Is this clear enough or subtext is needed ?
Yet reading some of the comments above, things get blurred and confused in some people's minds. Or do I detect a clinical case of paranoia in some of the posts above ?

Like it or not, I for one have no time for political correctness or herd mentality. A kit has to be judged on its OWN merit, not on the fact that it exists alone, and that it is plastic and not resin.

As for your offer, if your modelling skills are on par with your reasoning, I don't think I will take you up on it, even if that was for a mere10 €.
However, I'm just curious to know : have you ever been offered cash to keep quiet ?...
Then again, you know what they say, sometimes silence is golden.

PS : this thread was started by someone who kindly posted about upcoming AM sets for Zvezda's T-90 kit.
Therefore, isn't it a bit strange that those who are quite happy to build the kit from the box (and do not wish to purchase any of those sets) feel the urge of adding their two cents here ?
Are they masochists, or just happy to argue for the sake of it ?



Yann I believe your hobby is looking for faults and trying to prove to everyone that you're right, not building models, at least as far as I can see.
No one here is doubting that you're right, we'll give you that benefit but for the 99% who purchase this kit and actually get around to building it... Yann...they and I believe that the kit is good enough, that the modifications required to improve it are minimal, and that new turrets and hulls probably won't sell very well. I was in favour of the padded tracks, these are important. A good barrel would be welcome. And of course for those who require it, PE screens and perhaps a small PE sheet for other things those very few modelers might feel they require.
As for your accusation that we are hijacking this thread, the individuals interested in selling us merchandise were looking for feedback, and they have received it-- and they received a debate as to whether these products are even necessary. What more could they ask for? I'd add I was also the first to answer on this thread, not you, so you can be quiet. If anyone is a thread hijacker here, you are.



Look, I'm not interested in a pissing contest.
This degenerated only when I had to cope with sarcastic remarks that weren't called for. English may be (very) distant second language to me, I don't like being laughed at and ridiculed particularly when it's coming from someone who has yet to prove he's done his homework on the subject.

OK, some people didn't like the word "disaster" ? Fine, just get over it. Or go back and check the photos in that Russian blog to see if you can see the forest for the trees...
Bottomline is that while you and others may think that this kit is great, I (and a few others) have every right to think otherwise.
If that bozo from "Merryland" believes that this Zvezda kit is next best thing since sliced bread, more power to him. Only now Zvezda won't have to worry about improving their next product. Why should they, almost eveyone out there loves the new kit! Who wins in the end, huh?
Well maybe Meng will...

I've been long enough in this hobby to know that such manufacturers like Dragon have come a looooong way and if it wasn't for the feedback, often very CRITICAL, and the subsequent assistance by dedicated modellers and/or researchers to improve their products, we might never have gotten great kits like the M1A1/A2 series, or their Tigers Panthers, StuGs etc... that are light years ahead of what Zvezda is currently coming out with.

I've had enough of this nonsense now as this discussion isn't getting anywhere.
I have a beer in one hand, a fag in the other and I shall be magnanimous and you or anyone else may have the last word on this.




It's the 1% that always screeches the loudest. I'm tired at looking at your words, let's look at your work instead, otherwise I rest my case.
afv_rob
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 10:52 AM UTC
I very confused as to why some members who state that they aren't too fussed about accuracy even bother to enter these discussions...?

If the issues of the Zvezda kit aren't an issue for you then move along. None of those individuals who have criticised us so called 'rivet counters' have offered anything in the way of constructive comments. So why not simply ignore this topic and let those who are concerned discuss it amongst themselves. Theres already plenty of discussions on this forum which deal with the the kit in its basic form. As yet no one (I did think about it) has opened up a discussion addressing the finer points of accuracy of the kit. I see no harm with these thread and hope that members who do not like the tone of discussion just ignore it.

As to my stance on the kit. I believe it is an excellent kit, and looks very impressive. Many modellers will have lots of fun building it. For me I strive to build models which are as accurate as possible, and this kit has a number of problems which are troubling for me. Despite some members thoughts, although I may be anal about accuracy, I have still built many models and am happy to present my work to prove this fact. I find enjoyment in this aspect of the hobby and I really struggle to see why this is an issue for some members.

Once again we have we some members being rude and critical against those of us who build for accuracy (as close as we can get it). Yet I am yet to see any rude comments by the so called 'rivet counters' directed against the opposing side. Yann's comments have only been critical of Zvezda, he is yet to belittle the modellers themselves who are wishing to build this kit out of the box.




P.S-the updates from Miniarm look excellent and I will be spending my money on them!
McBain
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United Kingdom
Joined: May 22, 2004
KitMaker: 37 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 11:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I very confused as to why some members who state that they aren't too fussed about accuracy even bother to enter these discussions...?

If the issues of the Zvezda kit aren't an issue for you then move along. None of those individuals who have criticised us so called 'rivet counters' have offered anything in the way of constructive comments. So why not simply ignore this topic and let those who are concerned discuss it amongst themselves.



Very well said Rob - I with completely with you on this! I'm saddened by the responses of some people here...
Removed by original poster on 03/08/12 - 23:15:17 (GMT).
lukiftian
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: March 12, 2010
KitMaker: 791 posts
Armorama: 592 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 11:56 AM UTC
Once again we have we some members being rude and critical against those of us who build for accuracy (as close as we can get it). Yet I am yet to see any rude comments by the so called 'rivet counters' directed against the opposing side. Yann's comments have only been critical of Zvezda, he is yet to belittle the modellers themselves who are wishing to build this kit out of the box.

That's not true Rob, he's been rude and condescending, read his posts again.

All I want to see from him is one finished kit, finished to the standards that some of us more concerned with presentation than absolutist accuracy might commend.

Since Yann is concerned with perfection that can't be too much to ask, can it?
Spiderfrommars
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Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 01:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If the issues of the Zvezda kit aren't an issue for you then move along. None of those individuals who have criticised us so called 'rivet counters' have offered anything in the way of constructive comment



Rob, general speaking ,as I said before, the guys who say "this kit is junk" hardly ever write a list of mistakes and almost never say WHY a kit could be considered poor. I know, this probably wasn't the right post to do it, so I'm not referring to Yann (And I apologize to him if something which I've written could be considered offensive, it wasn't my intention) but I think that actually is this attitude which isn't constructive at all and I'm quite fed up of it.
It would be more constructive for all of us (rivet counters or not) sharing references and educated guess rather than express harsch criticism.

Anyway, I think is time to stop this argument


Cheers