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Zvezda T-90 Tweaks and Changes
afv_rob
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 10:20 AM UTC
In my opinion to make a good looking T-90, its best to combine the Zvezda and Tamiya T-72 kits. The Tamiya T-72 is very good and appears not to suffer from the same ride height issues as the Zvezda T-90. It also has a better, more refined engine deck in my opinion (despite the offset issue with the intakes). By sticking the T-90 specific parts on the Tamiya kit, one would end up with a very nice looking model. This is just my opinion of course.

The new Miniarm stuff is stunningly nice, but sadly for me it does not address the biggest problem which is Zvezda's weak hull. When I look at the Zvezda kit its almost like the turret and hull have been designed totally separately, the turret is a work of art, but the hull isn't so nice in my view.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 - 12:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I was talking about the profile of the tank as a whole. I know that there is no big difference between Tamiya's and Zvezda's upper hull dimensions. BUT, when you compare both models built up not just the raw hull, you will notice that there is a notable differance in the hull profile. That's the point. So yes, the problem must be related with the suspension arms (I have mentioned it before)



I think we are saying the same thing...I still need to measure the difference between the Tamiya T-72 and Zvezda T-90 suspensions to see what the deal is.
gloucesternige
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 04:00 AM UTC
Looking at the first comparison pics in this thread, I'm of the opinion that the hull sides need to be lowered to allow the hull top plate to sit lower over the wheels, then the skirts need to be trimmed accordingly.

If you stick a rule up to your screen and compare heights on those pics, you'll see what I mean. The rear end looks too high from the ground and the wheels. The skirts look too deep and in my opinion the front sprocket is too far up the hull side...

Just my 2p??

Nige
gloucesternige
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 07:53 AM UTC
I've just measured my kit up against a drawing found on google images. I obviously don't know the accuracy of the drawing?? It does "Look" right though??

In my opinion the Zvezda hull sides are 3mm too tall at the rear, above the drive sprocket, tapering off to the correct height at the front. If this 3mm is removed, I think the model will look OK. I think maybe the side plates are actually OK? I am also considering the fact that the drive sprocket may be too far forward?

Nige
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 09:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've just measured my kit up against a drawing found on google images. I obviously don't know the accuracy of the drawing?? It does "Look" right though??

In my opinion the Zvezda hull sides are 3mm too tall at the rear, above the drive sprocket, tapering off to the correct height at the front. If this 3mm is removed, I think the model will look OK. I think maybe the side plates are actually OK? I am also considering the fact that the drive sprocket may be too far forward?

Nige







To be honest it seems to me that sprocket wheels are in the right position. Removing 3mm of the hull could be a more drastic solution (you'll have to solve the fitting problems between the upper and the lower hull). Anyway, I think that also in this case you'll have to shorten the rubber skirts




redcap
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 10:52 PM UTC
I have followed this thread with interest having recently bought this kit and for what's in the box, IMHO it's a steal at £20.00! Looking at the picture above however which I assume are both images of a 'before' and 'after' built up version of this same kit....what exactly am I looking for that's "different"? The skirt height appears the same, number of track links between road wheels and drive sprockets appear to be the same number, no obvious height difference in turret/hull spacing etc?
Perhaps some highlighter lines or circles may assist because in truth and not wishing to provoke any sort of 'flame war' here amongst the prurists, I simply don't see any difference. If there is, what's the 'killer' as far as building one version over the other?
Please note that my comments are based solely upon the single 'side -on' picture shown above.
Regards
Gary
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 11:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have followed this thread with interest having recently bought this kit and for what's in the box, IMHO it's a steal at £20.00! Looking at the picture above however which I assume are both images of a 'before' and 'after' built up version of this same kit....what exactly am I looking for that's "different"? The skirt height appears the same, number of track links between road wheels and drive sprockets appear to be the same number, no obvious height difference in turret/hull spacing etc?
Perhaps some highlighter lines or circles may assist because in truth and not wishing to provoke any sort of 'flame war' here amongst the prurists, I simply don't see any difference. If there is, what's the 'killer' as far as building one version over the other?
Please note that my comments are based solely upon the single 'side -on' picture shown above.
Regards
Gary





is a small distance which totally changes the look of the tank
gloucesternige
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 - 11:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have followed this thread with interest having recently bought this kit and for what's in the box, IMHO it's a steal at £20.00! Looking at the picture above however which I assume are both images of a 'before' and 'after' built up version of this same kit....what exactly am I looking for that's "different"? The skirt height appears the same, number of track links between road wheels and drive sprockets appear to be the same number, no obvious height difference in turret/hull spacing etc?
Perhaps some highlighter lines or circles may assist because in truth and not wishing to provoke any sort of 'flame war' here amongst the prurists, I simply don't see any difference. If there is, what's the 'killer' as far as building one version over the other?
Please note that my comments are based solely upon the single 'side -on' picture shown above.
Regards
Gary



Hi Gary,

It's not that clear in the pictures above to be honest, but if you look at the pics on the first page, comparing the finished kit to a photo of the real thing, you'll see the back end appears "Jacked up". Once it was brought to my attention, it is clear that the T90 has a very squat stance, which is in my opinion very attractive.

I agree, this kit is a steal at £20!! If it had a Tamiya label on the box it would be £50+!!

I'm going to attempt cutting my kit up this morning to try and see if my removal of 3mm will work??

Nige

Pics to follow.
gloucesternige
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 12:55 AM UTC
Hi all,

Working from Mauro's drawings posted above, I reckon this is where the errors are.



I think the hull sides are too tall all ther way along by approximately 2.5 - 3mm.

Notice I have not included any dimensions from the wheel centres, so as not to include any errors in the suspension.

I think I'm gonna wait for opinions before I start cutting!!

Thanks for looking. Feedback please.

Regards

Nige

Edit:- just noticed the numbers are not easy to see:-

Front, Kit = 26.4mm Should be 23.8?

Rear, Kit = 32.2mm Should be 29.1?
gloucesternige
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 12:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text







To be honest it seems to me that sprocket wheels are in the right position. Removing 3mm of the hull could be a more drastic solution (you'll have to solve the fitting problems between the upper and the lower hull). Anyway, I think that also in this case you'll have to shorten the rubber skirts







I agree, the skirts will probably need to be shortened, but please remember, the images above are cropped on a PC, so in effect, removing material from the skirts is actually reducing the total hull height.

Nige
tanknick22
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 01:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



What about the turret?



Didn't get that far...but from what I've seen of the Miniarm and Zevzda turret isn't that different.

Plus I think the one in the scale drawing is of the regular turret and not the welded turret in the kit.

Here is a photo of the two hulls side by side dry fitted together.


couldnt i just get botht the tamiya T72 and zevdas T90 and cross breed them by talking the best of both kits? like for example take the upper hull from the T90 and the lower hull from the t72?
brunocollin
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 05:11 AM UTC
Hi,
Here is my modest contribution.
I overlayed Tam T-72 and Zvezda T-90 side skirts :




brunocollin
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 05:14 AM UTC
And on the reverse, the largest size of T-90 skirts is clear.
2 to 3 mm to remove...
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 05:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all,

Working from Mauro's drawings posted above, I reckon this is where the errors are.



I think the hull sides are too tall all ther way along by approximately 2.5 - 3mm.

Notice I have not included any dimensions from the wheel centres, so as not to include any errors in the suspension.

I think I'm gonna wait for opinions before I start cutting!!

Thanks for looking. Feedback please.

Regards

Nige

Edit:- just noticed the numbers are not easy to see:-

Front, Kit = 26.4mm Should be 23.8?

Rear, Kit = 32.2mm Should be 29.1?



I've found them in a reliable Russian site, they should be correct.

here another hi res one from another reliable sorce



Great job Nige, thanks a lot.
gloucesternige
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 05:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,
Here is my modest contribution.
I overlayed Tam T-72 and Zvezda T-90 side skirts :







Thanks for posting this Colin,

This just goes to prove what I've been thinking...

If you cut that 3mm off the skirts to get them right, you'll need to bring the hull top down to get the skirts back in line with the top of the rims, whaere they should be.

I've just had a look on the Russian site with no less than 75 pages on this kit in one thread. They really go to town on this kit, and say that the skirts should be 11mm high, and that the overall height of the hull is 3mm too tall.

Time to start cutting I think??

Nige
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 05:51 AM UTC
I've scaled that drawings at 35 scale.

If you need a PDF of them send me a PM

cheers
gloucesternige
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 06:11 AM UTC
OK, sorted....

The issues are huge, if you're a rivet counter!!

It would appear that Zvezda has moved the wheels around to compensate for the wrongly sized tub. I'm gonna go for it, and carry out some major surgery to correct it all.

Basically, without going into too much detail,if you take the suspension pivots as a datum, every other pivot or bearing is out of place!! Funnily enough, vertically out by 2.5mm in all cases???

Nige
gloucesternige
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 08:11 AM UTC
Here's a little taster of what I've done, before I go out for a pint.



Like I said, major surgery on the way!!!

Nige
gloucesternige
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Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2012 - 07:27 AM UTC
Hi all,

I've been up at the Hinkley show near Leicester all day, so not got too much done.

Here's one side all dry fitted back together, following the mods I was talking about yesterday.

Before...

After...


Notice the new lower position of the drive sprocket. In all the photo's I've looked at, the centre line of the main wheels lines up with the bottom of the drive sprocket, and the top of the wheel centre cover should line up with the bottom of the idler wheel. this has now been achieved, allowing the 3mm to be removed from the overall height of the hull. Once the side skirts also have the 3mm removed, all "Should" look OK???

Here's the side panel's on their own. Only the top one is modified. (Other than the three idler positions being removed on the bottom)



The drive sprocket is moved down. The rear two shock mounts are moved back and down and the idler pivot is moved down and forward.

Please wish me luck with this. I'm an engineer, and can't leave things alone!!!

Nige
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2012 - 07:40 AM UTC
Congrats indeed for the cleanliness of your surgery Nige

I'm waiting for your final results

Cheers and thanks
Karl187
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Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2012 - 11:04 PM UTC
Brave work Nige and as Mauro said- very clean and it certainly looks promising.
gloucesternige
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2012 - 04:33 AM UTC
Thanks for your replies Mauro and Karl. It is looking promising??

A little update...

On the left hull side, there is also some work to do. The shock mounts need to be moved, and with the rear one, it needs to be cut off and twisted.



And so, onto cutting the height down..

I made a template, and added some stops to both sides set at the amount I want to remove.



As you can see here, the side is slid up and back against the stops...



Then marked out for the correct cut line.



So here goes.. It's 16:30 in the UK, and I'm gonna start cutting.

More pics later...

Nige

gloucesternige
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2012 - 05:20 AM UTC
Well, here you go...



Before..


All cut down now, and dry fitted together...
Lowered sprockets, idlers and shortened hull. Stock skirt height.


Shortened skirts made with plasticard as a trial.


Now, that's better!!

What do you think??

Nige
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2012 - 04:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Now, that's better!!

What do you think??

Nige



It looks very good so far. An interesting way to solve the problem. I'm interested to see the complete hull

Cheers
SEDimmick
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Posted: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 - 12:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


What do you think??

Nige



It looks good, but IMO I think the work done is a bit overkill. I still think that the thickness issue (pending my measurements) can be fixed by trimming the side skirts and adjusting the suspension units.

I took a look at the measurements the other day and I don't think that trimming the lower hull is necessary since the 2-3mm extra on it extends into the upper hull and visually (see my photo compared with the Tamiya T-72) its just about identical to the Tamiya T-72.

I'd like to see your end results though...