To all the NATO and IDF experts
I'm trying to find the right sand size to create the anti-slip coating
here is my result


for the anti slip sand I used fine grinded silica sand from my lab where I work =)
the size I use is +215 micron - 300 micron sand, but I have silica sand for size down to 38 micron, i think they are good for NATO anti slip?
38 micron scale up 35 times is about 1.3 mm, anyone knows the size of anti-slip used on Abrams and Strykers?

Back to the model, the chunk of agglomerate was my 1st try, where I mixed the silica sand with Future and it became large chunk
the 2nd try I sprinkled the sand on a wet layer of Future

Anyone think the sand size is good for scale?
I dunno what is the sand size applied on Merkava and Abrams
Thanks!

Vincent looks go to me have you try white glue ?? that is what i'm going to use on my meng
dave

I don't know what is the exact size. Anyway there are lots of pics that you can use as references


Merkava







Abrams

you may wish to try embossing powder...that's pretty fine, similar in grade to Cast-a - coat

Why don't manufactures just mold this on,like the Dragon pre-zimmed offerings ?

I just want to know why the hell a Ferrari is parked next to a USMC Abrams?


Oh, and I would suggest Rust-O-Leum texture spray paint. The fineness of the texture works well for 1/35 armor. Plus you can mask it off to get the anti-slip walkways right.

Oh, and Tony, Showcase Models Australia molded on their anti-skid on the Bushmaster. It looks ok, but I think it's a bit thick and overscale, but I'd need to see a good picture of an actual vehicle before saying definitively so.

Yes,and i have seen a lot of Merkava,s where it's overscaled,looks like a beach !!.So I guess it just takes practice.

[quote]I don't know what is the exact size. Anyway there are lots of pics that you can use as references


Merkava




Thanks Mauro, that's some very nice pictures
I didnt know that on Abrams the anti-slip is so sparsely applied

Anyone happen to know the size of that Merkava bolt in the picture? I could size down to guesstimate the size of sand grain and scale down from here

Vincent;

Given as you have determined that the 38 micron grit is equivalent to ca 1.33mm grain in 1/35, I would be starting with that stuff and contemplating going to something even smaller!

From the many posted "real surface" pictures, I would guess that the pictured painted-over grain is probably well within that 1.3mm size.

The other thing I note is that the application on the real thing appears to be fairly sparse - one of the biggest quibbles I have with most builds where folks have added non-skid is that the added stuff looks way too thick and clumpy- and often distractingly-so. So, from where I sit, a thinner, single-grain depth and smaller grain size could be all good!

I'm pretty much a WWII Axis builder - the modern non-skid issue is similar to DIY zimmerit applied to 1/35 plastic panzers. The real stuff was actually applied in a layer maybe 20 - 35mm thick, including its sterotypical ridge-and-valley surface topography. So a scale "zimm" coat should come in at somewhere between 0.5 and 1.0mm - which is pretty small (but 10+ times as thick as what you want!). It's pretty challenging for folks applying various putty and paste layers to plastic panzers to keep it both thin and consistently so! I can sympathize!

I'd consider a thin wash of dilute white glue or maybe even a slightly thick base paint coat as the wet base, and lightly sprinkle the grit on and dump the axcess off. Maybe do a quick second dusting and dump to get a few spots filled in? Follow with a light spray of base color to fix the surface and color your grit. I'd follow this with a bit of brushing with a dry brush to kick off build-up and thicker patches when all is dry? It seems to me that the trick is to get the grit stuck down with the thinnest coat possible, so that you mostly avoid filling detail and creating an overly-thick total paint-and-non-skid coating.

Just a suggestion, of course!

Bob

[quote]Given as you have determined that the 38 micron grit is equivalent to ca 1.33mm grain in 1/35, I would be starting with that stuff and contemplating going to something even smaller!

Thanks for your input Bob
yeah these grains on the photo seems pretty small for me, specially these on the Abrams, certainly looks like in the 1~2mm range
however 38microns silica sand, because of its tiny size, it's almost flour like and agglomerate quick easier
I will try with 38 micron tonight to see how it looks on Abrams

...this is my way to solve the anti-slip-problem: Badger aluminum oxide abrasive on wet, waterthinned Tamiya paint and - after drying - fixed with a very very thin cement:



Michael

Michael

I would love to get a better idea of how exactly you laid down the anti-slip. That looks as realistic as a 1:1 representation, right down to the uneven coating (not to be taken as the wrong application) and the edges being rough and not "taped off", just as they are on the real thing. Fantastic!

Vincent;

Michael B.'s approach is pretty much what I think of - apply a wet base coat, add grit, spray a fix layer (he offers cement - maybe good! In either case, it will get another fix coat when he, or you, apply your hull base-coat.) Aand his result is pretty nice.

Try your next experiment(s) on the bottom of the hull or somewhere else - a sheet of styrene, etc., to work out your favored approach and dosage.

IF you find your grit is pretty fine-seeming and clumpy powder, work up a little to some larger size. The thing which I find works with powdering stuff onto a tank (I apply dust and dirt this way when I cannot brush it on, as in around smaller detail bits) is to put a small amount of the grit onto a piece of stiff paper or foil which has been folded into a trough, and Blow the stuff across the desired location and wet surface, and then dump the excess off. You should get little or no clumping.

Of course you will do this under your paint-hood and use a gentle puff only, yes?

Cheers!

Bob

3rd try
this time with -150 to +100 micron silica sand
applied with thumb and finger on wet Future

38 micron sand are really flour or powder like
Is this too coarse? Just right? or too small for IDF? what about for Abrams?
any input is really appreaciated

Vincent;

Hi!

The grain looks pretty nice. It does look a little bit thick - maybe you can brush some off and thin your coat down a little. It will look pretty nice with a thin coat of paint over it, IMO! I think you just about got it!

Bob

Tamiya scenics sand "paint" is just about perfect IMHO.

It has the added benefit, that errors can be carefully scrapped away once dried...

HI,

I found that ground cinnamon is perfect for the IDF Merkavas.
first I paint on grey matt acrylic paint let it dry then I use diluted PVA glue and sprinkle the ground cinnamon over it tap off the excess and blow dry with hair drier. It works a treat, and it is non toxic.

Regards

Julian

[quote]


Here the complete walkaround

http://dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=781

I'm still collecting references about the 3D version. It isn't so easy anyway

Here some other great reference pics

http://www.idf-modelling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3118

As you can notice, Merkava anti slip surface looks quite rough



I was thinking to use baking soda, mineral sand , or Polyfilla putty



I haven't decided yet. It seems to me that also the Tamiya diorama texture paint would work perfectly (morover it would be maybe the easiest way to do this job)

http://www.idf-modelling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=3269

However, your third attempt looks quite convincing and Michael's method looks great indeed



Cheers

Older thread I know, but...

I am a total novice regarding anti-slip, but I've purchased a whole bunch of different materials to try to get it 'right' on various tanks. I am impressed with Michael B's use of the Badger Aluminum Oxide power, which I have as well. I found, when doing tests, that that powder can go on quite thick, so I'd caution anyone using it about that. Also, it is, by its nature, absolutely uniform in size of particles, so if your desire is some level of variation in the 'stones', this MAY not be the right stuff for you. All that said, however, it is great stuff that applies easily. I'd suggest a very gentle application such as has been suggested, something like blowing the powder over a sticky surface. Of course, you need to be careful with this stuff. I don't know to what degree it is harmful to humans and pets, but at the very least, it's really messy!

I think the suggested method of using thinned paint should work well. When I did my testing, I used Mr. Surfacer 1000, heavily diluted with alcohol, and it held the powder onto the plastic really well. The advantage of using Mr. Surfacer is the fact that it settles so perfectly, with no loss of surface detail. I use Tamiya paint all the time, too, but in this case, the Mr. Surfacer i think may be a better choice. Just my $0.02, of course, and I'd do some testing on your own to see if one or the other works better for you! Good luck!!

I am sold on Rustoleum's Terra Cotta textured spray paint. Looks the part for US non-skid and perhaps soem may say that is is too fine of a texture for the Israeli version of non-skid but I used it on my Meng Merka MK3D anyway. It looks the part to me, when scale distances are factored in...

John

The fixative used in model railroading to hold ballast in place -- thinned white glue with a drop of dish soap to cut surface tension -- might work well as a fixative, applying it with an eyedropper to the surface to flow out around the grit embedded in the base coat.

I have to admit that I snickered when I first saw photos of the antiskid coating on the Merkava; if I didn't know that they were photographs of the actual tanks, I'd be tempted to take off points for sloppy application of the nonskid coating. Growing up as a Navy brat, I always saw nonskid coatings as a surface coating that was sprayed or rolled on in an even coat:



or as peel-and-stick material cut to fit for a particular installation (and an even more uniform surface):



The Merkava nonskid coating looks, to my eye, like a half-assed afterthought, but I suppose that it's a matter of different requirements.

As an alternative method, why use an additional material when the kit can be textured with Liquid Poly?

I've never used the sand/grit/textured paint options for my non-skid.

Instead, I use a method that's been around for years and years.

Working one or two panels at a time, brush some Humbrol Liquid Poly (or similar liquid cement onto the panel and allow it to stand for about 30 seconds. this softens the surface of the plastic. Then, taking an old paintbrush with the bristles cut down to about 5mm length, gently 'stipple' the plastic. This action adds texture to the surface - keep stippling until the plastic has hardened again, then repeat the process on the next panel.

It's a cheap, effective and easily controlled method.

Regards,
John