I have an old Dragon Panzer IV J late without its turret. I'm thinking about doing a post war conversion along the lines of those Egyptian Shermans with a FL-10 turrets. My ideas until now are:

1)Use a Heller AMX-13/75 turret, in syrian service. I don't know the diameter of the FL-10 turret ring, but I think the good ol' Pz IV could handle the weight of that weird swingin' turret.
2)A Tamiya T34/85 turret, in finnish, bulgarian or syrian service. AFAIK, the diameters of both turret rings are, at least, pretty much the same (~1600 mm), yet weight could be an issue.
3)A Sherman turret, but it doesn't make too much sense.
4) ???? dunno, maybe I should put an Alan PaK 43 or something like that on top for a makeshift very late war waffenträger or a Trumpeter PT 76 turret, or maybe I should use one of those Hobbyboss V-150 with 90 mm guns, or a Tamiya Centaur turret that I have sitting somewhere.

Any other ideas, comments and observations are welcome. Also I want to keep it technically feasible and realistic.

Thanks in advance.

When you think about it the PzIV had a small confined turret throughout it's career. Up gunning would require a larger turret so the skys the limit here. Post WWII would mean at least a 90mm so maybe a T34/85 turret?

G

Yeah, that's the idea. I don't want a groundbreaking supermegaduper upgraded paper panzer MBT for the 1946 Heer. I just want a second-line/mobile pillbox/training vehicle, reflecting the real use of the Post War Panzer IV that the syrians, finns, spaniards and some WP nations had. But, of course, with a technically feasible 'What If?' twist.

RZV

My first thought was a Sherman turret with a Calliope launcher. But then I thought that if a military wanted something like that they'd just buy a Sherman with a Calliope.

You could build up the superstructure and make an ATM tank. Or, in keeping with the rocket launcher theme, maybe even a Katusha launcher.

I like the idea of the T-34 or the V-150 turrets.

I'm thinking that the T34/85 is not the best idea though, since they were so many of them in the post war era... But it sounds pretty nice anyway. The Katyushapanzer or any other SP art idea sounds quite good too, yet why use the Panzer IV instead of the T34?. In that vein, even the AMX 13 idea seems to more plausible using the ubiquitous T34 chassis.

I'm believing that I should accept that very late war makeshift conversion...
Anyway, thanks for your input
RZV

someone somewhere converted a Stug-IV Lang SP to a missile-firer (single R4M on a stick ala BMP-1). There was a real PZ-IV chassis with a "calliope" bank on it -- I think Commanders Models does the coversion.

I like the idea of the AMX-13 turret.

If you're talking 50s to mid 60s period, the AMX-13 or T34/85 turrets are reasonable proposals. If you are looking at a time period a bit later, like the 70s to early 80s then perhaps a Caddy Cage 90mm turret would be more appropriate. Definitely second line, if not third, but with enough punch to handle your own revolting citizens or the armoured cars and 3rd line armour of neighbouring 3rd world nations...

Something African, say Udgandan, or Zambian, comes to mind.

For the Finns, who had 1st World neighbours, a completely 3rd line solution wouldn't do. Something that looks like a Stug but is armed with a multiple Sagger set-up , like the GAZ 69 deal, would be more likely. A Finnish Jagdpanzer Rakete sort of thing.

Likely with a new engine deck for a diesel engine and a bunch of smoke mortars & new sighting crap festooned over the new superstructure. Maybe with ERA to give it a chance in 1986? Hmmm, that sounds kinda cool. I might have to give that a go myself...

Paul

Add a BMP-3 turret --- option 1

Add a Weapon station from a Stryker -- option 2

Add a Pt-76 or a T-54 turret -- option 3

Add a Leopard 2 A6 or a Merkava Turret -- option 4


Have FUN !!!

Add an 88 gun...but It wouldn't be a "what if project"...

http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/panzer4flak88.htm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/message/1177479767/Panzer+IV+mit+Flak+88mm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/message/1337538546/pz+IV+ausf.+G+w-flak+37+....+another+step+ahead

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/message/1337538546/pz+IV+ausf.+G+w-flak+37+....+another+step+ahead

Otherwise, if I were you, I'd scratch a new invented turret

Probably, my best bet now is to buy the Heller 81122 AMX 13/75 with the SS.11 missiles. I could build either the Panzer IV with the FL-10 turret in syrian (?) service. Or scratchbuilt a small 'box' over the turret ring and put a couple of SS.11 on top of that to make a poor man's Raketenjagdpanzer in finnish colours.





ahahaha, nice ideas, but probably the Leo turret weights more than the tank itself! Altough a BMP turret sounds good.



I knew about that one-off conversion. One of my first ideas was to put a PaK 43 instead of a FlaK since it was apparently lighter, mantaining the original superstructure in place. Another idea that sprung up my mind lately is to scratchbuilt a Vereinfachtem Turm, that simplified turret that the germans planned to manufacture to speed up the construction of Panzers IV late in the war.

Anyway, thanks for your ideas guys!
RZV

maybe not a Sherman turret but try something like an M10,
M10A1 or M36. Or if your realy going to go crazy just add the 12.8cm Pak with side stabilizers for traversed firing.
Paul

Does it have to have a turret? Could be used as a munitions or bergepanzer, or some other support/engineering vehicle?

mmm.. I read all text, I know different variants on panzer 4, for example one misille on top using flak 41 mount (exist almost one drawing of ww2), katyusha version, simplificated turret or hibrid model (In Israel today exist pictures about one G hull with D turret and schurzen, used by syrians), some waffentraegers appears in panzer 4 un seine abarten of spielberger with 150 lefh and 128 gun. Other options is use the line of Paw guns, I seen the flakzwilling 43 on one, the flakvierling mk103/38 (4 mk103 of 3cm), Somes 88 ideas.. I have a great collection of pictures of somes guys with much imagination.. hehe. The most interesting almost for me is the use of Reintocher missile and the pz4 how waffentraeger.
Turret:
If you want use other turret but not lost the scense of pz4, you can use others parameters for example use one turret Style Porche or henschel ktiger turret, more small but with the same line, remember the Pz4 is octogonal, the 45º angles needs more modifications in the hull to gain more atractive. I have one fB with muchs fans of this style of tanks, named Panzer1946, this guys have greatest ideas and he build much in plastic.

Engine: You can use Jet engines, in Tiger und seine abarten appears some drawings to this type of use in Ktiger, almost appears 3 variants, my friend Calum melrose use this in one Ktiger porsche and this looks greats. In the game of playstation "panzer front" appears one jagdpanzer 4 with 88 L100 and this type of engine named "aureole", is a good reference for you if need some ideas.

cheers.

Paul: I've ditched the M4, M36 and variants ideas, no sense in using a slighty inferior chassis for the same punch (and the T-34 idea too, for the same reason). I'm still thinking though about a makeshif SPG. Altough not a 128 mm PaK 44 because I think that at 10 tons it would had overloaded the chassis (Besides Trumpeter offer is both hard to find and kinda expensive here ). A PaK 40 or 43 sounds more reasonable from a technical point of wiev, and also a M101 howitzer, 25 pounder or a ZiS-3, for a captured 'flavor'.

Frank: Was my first idea, but it's rather boring (the munitionspanzer) and I already have Dragon's Bergepanzer IV in my stash. About any other combat engineering vehicle, to be sincere,I'm too lazy at this moment to think and scratch all the associated stuff

Maultier: Me has leido la mente ajajaja. I'm about to buy a -tamiya Panzer IV D to try the hybrid idea. The turret itself seems to comply with the available plans (PanzerTracts 4), and its lack of detail doesn't worry and/or can be fixed rather easily. The gun worries me, wrong proportions and lack of details. I have some KwK 37 spares from a few Dragon models, but upgrade it to a long KwK 40 it is out of the question (I could scratchbuilt some of that though, but it would still miss the barrel and muzzle break.)

Probably, If i continue with the hybrid Pz IV D/J idea, i would paint it in a distinct 'soviet' green, without rommelkiste or schurzen. The background history would be that one of the re-nascent post war central european armies (think Poland, Bulgaria or Czechoslovakia, or even Yugoslavia) used the turret of a former training Panzer IV D tank left behind by the NSKK or the Polizei and installed it in a less wore out Ausf J hull. A quick and cheap solution for the war ravaged countries and, of course, for my wallet.

Thanks for your ideas and insights guys!

RZV

PD: I managed to get a Tamiya Wirbelwind turret, could use it too...

since the PZ IV had some crazy things done to it already (88mm being attached), to make it a great what if project, you would have to do something completely insane. First thing that came to mind was add a large modern turret, but would look "dumb" even though it is unique.
My thought is to make it completely what if. create something from scratch that makes it unique and "oh Sh**" at the same time. maybe something like a morser type of gun or creating a large tesla coil or other electric weapon. maybe even a mobile nuke weapon.

maybee "tesla tank"?


regards.

If you aren't going for something remotely plausible, I'd scratch something that resembles the KV-2 turret. Will be interesting to see what you decide on.

A self-propelled Soviet 122mm howitzer (Zvezda M-30 or Trumpeter D-30, maybe) painted in Syrian green.

Build it like a Su-76 or a Bishop or 15cm sIG auf PzIII.

Another option might be a self-propelled Soviet 76.2mm AT gun and display it in a dug-in defensive bunker line.

Anyways, something plausible and within the capability of a third-world army.

My .02...

I've been scratching a PZ IV turret from Dragon spare parts (Front plate and bottom). It's still in rough shape, no details. Since I don't have the gun and cupola parts, i'm thinking about a bulgarian-like solution, an open topped turret with a ZiS-3 or similar. Something quite plausible and totally within the capability of a third-world army, and even cheaper than the PZ IVD/J idea.

RZV

Or also i could make a PzBeobWg IV with a dummy gun and a StuG cupola, a mix between PzBeobWg III and the real PzBeobWg IV...

RZV

How about a bank of Katyusha rocket launchers.
British Centurian turret or USA M26 Pershing turret.
British FireFly M4 Sherman turret or Russian IS2-3 turret.

If you end up not using the Pz.IV turret, maybe you can also give this a try?

Maybe a guided missle launcher, like SS11s or maybe a T.O.W. launcher ala a M113.

How this for a back story - laying about forgotten at the end of WWII. Found and rehab'd by a modern whacko terror group and turned into a mobile artillery piece with that cannon that usually gets fitted to anything with four wheel in a third world country...