Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Sherman Conversion
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 10:19 PM UTC
Anybody ever convert an M4A3 to an M4A4? Wanna do a Comonwealth Sherman, but not a Firefly. Am I in to personal torture or is it doable?
herberta
Joined: March 06, 2002
KitMaker: 939 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 10:38 PM UTC
Hi Chief
I'm not sure of the feasability, but I believe the M4A4 hull was slightly longer among other things. You can get a DML M4A4 kit if you want to save some time!! They have a couple that are available, the straight M4A4, or a rocket firing version (same kit with rockets).
The DML kit hull is too long, I gather 3 - 5 mm needs to be shaved off the lower hull.
The upswept return rollers provided with the M4A4 kits are also wrong, but that would be true with the M4A3 as a starting point.
Cheers
Andy
See you Wednesday?
I'm not sure of the feasability, but I believe the M4A4 hull was slightly longer among other things. You can get a DML M4A4 kit if you want to save some time!! They have a couple that are available, the straight M4A4, or a rocket firing version (same kit with rockets).
The DML kit hull is too long, I gather 3 - 5 mm needs to be shaved off the lower hull.
The upswept return rollers provided with the M4A4 kits are also wrong, but that would be true with the M4A3 as a starting point.
Cheers
Andy
See you Wednesday?
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Anybody ever convert an M4A3 to an M4A4? Wanna do a Comonwealth Sherman, but not a Firefly. Am I in to personal torture or is it doable?
Chief--you obviously must also walk on broken glass and subject yourself to other forms of torture if you wish to undertake the project described above. Personally, I did the Fire Fly found it superb in all respects and highly recommend it.
Try it, you'll like it.
DJ
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 11:20 PM UTC
This seems foolhardy since there is already several boxings of the excellent DML M4A4 hull (at least 3 Fireflys and 2 standard 75mm turrets). I picked up the DML M4A4 with 60 lb rockets (they are optional, same kit as the one without) for less than $20.
Among the modifications you need to do is to lengthen the upper and lower hull, meaning your vinyl tracks will have to be replaced with either individual tracks or the AFV Club vinyl ones, the back deck will have to be redone and most of the British specific fittings like the stowage boxes will have to be scratch built.
Your best best is to offer up the Tamiya M4A3 for the DML M4A4. If you have the new Tamiya 75mm Late Frontline breakthrough kit, people will probably trade you in a heartbeat. The DML M4A4 is about the only Sherman kit that never really sold out in the US. I seem to see the one with markings for the Chinese Provisional Army all over the place. You can also buy the Firefly and slap the 75mm turret on it.
eBay has several up for auction from $16 to $18 plus shipping: Search for DML M4A4
Among the modifications you need to do is to lengthen the upper and lower hull, meaning your vinyl tracks will have to be replaced with either individual tracks or the AFV Club vinyl ones, the back deck will have to be redone and most of the British specific fittings like the stowage boxes will have to be scratch built.
Your best best is to offer up the Tamiya M4A3 for the DML M4A4. If you have the new Tamiya 75mm Late Frontline breakthrough kit, people will probably trade you in a heartbeat. The DML M4A4 is about the only Sherman kit that never really sold out in the US. I seem to see the one with markings for the Chinese Provisional Army all over the place. You can also buy the Firefly and slap the 75mm turret on it.
eBay has several up for auction from $16 to $18 plus shipping: Search for DML M4A4
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 11:32 PM UTC
Rob--Game Point! I wonder what they feed those guys in the Navy.
DJ
DJ
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:26 AM UTC
OK, I get the point! I just got the M4A3 Kit#210 late prod. 75mm, Not the Frontline Breakthrough, but the one that came out the same time as the 105mm kit. Wanna do a British Sherman, but didn't want to do a Firefly. I guess I'll go shopping. But for the record, this Chief ain't afraid of ANY conversion attempt. 
TUGA
#034
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,718 posts
Armorama: 1,130 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But for the record, this Chief ain't afraid of ANY conversion attempt.
I think I have the sketches to convert a M4A3 to a M4A4.If you want I can look for them, scan and send to you by e-mail.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That's the old one, also known as kit #35122. It is still a good kit after 20 years. The new one that came out with the 105mm version is kit #35250, with the 105mm one being kit #35251.I just got the M4A3 Kit#210 late prod. 75mm, Not the Frontline Breakthrough, but the one that came out the same time as the 105mm kit.
The current Tamiya Shermans are:
35122: M4A3 75mm Late, circa 1984
35139: M4A3E2 Jumbo, 1987
35190: M4 75mm Early, 1995
35250: M4A3 75mm Frontline Breakthrough, 2001
35251: M4 105mm Howtizer, 2001
...and the ancient motorized M4A3E8 Sherman #MT118 that is well over 30 years old. The above listed kits are basically the same kit though (not the M4A3E8) and if you lay them out side-by-side, you can see the sprues are alike. I did a review of them comparing the 5 with the ones I have on hand. It's in the review section.
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:29 AM UTC
Rob, As usual you are a plethora of info on Armor. Just wish somebody would ask for info on an A-6E TRAM, EC-130Q TACAMO Herc. or EP-3E Aries II.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 02:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Rob, As usual you are a plethora of info on Armor. Just wish somebody would ask for info on an A-6E TRAM, EC-130Q TACAMO Herc. or EP-3E Aries II.
Chief--none of us doubt your ability to tackle a tough job. If you are interested in getting any of the systems described by Rob, please PM me and see if we can negotiate a swap. Swapping is the way to go. I have been very pleased with all the deals made via Armorama with the exception of one. Not too bad a track record.
DJ
RufusLeeking
Joined: January 18, 2002
KitMaker: 330 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:28 AM UTC
While we are on the subject of Shermans, does anyone make an M4A1 Sherman with the 75mm gun? I've built the Italeri's M4A1 with the 76mm, or is it just a matter of ordering a 75mm barrel for the Italeri kit?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You must mean the ever-elusive M4A1 75mm by DML. It goes for quite a pretty penny on eBay and most people have never seen one....does anyone make an M4A1 Sherman with the 75mm gun? I've built the Italeri's M4A1 with the 76mm, or is it just a matter of ordering a 75mm barrel for the Italeri kit?
No, you can't just put a 75mm gun tube on in place of the the 76mm gun. The turrets are quite different. However, you can put the Tamiya M4A3 75mm turret on the Italeri M4A1 hull. It used to be done by modelers all the time.
Yes, I have one.
RufusLeeking
Joined: January 18, 2002
KitMaker: 330 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:38 AM UTC
Cool...thanks Rob. Can you put the 76mm turret on Tamiya's M4A3?
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You must mean the ever-elusive M4A1 75mm by DML. It goes for quite a pretty penny on eBay and most people have never seen one
Yep - I've never seen one of them
doubt that I ever will...Gunnie
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 04:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, it was the second to the last Sherman variant used by the US, the M4A3 76mm. The last one was the M4A3E8, which is basically the M4A3 hull with the 76mm turret and the horizontal volute suspension system (HVSS).Cool...thanks Rob. Can you put the 76mm turret on Tamiya's M4A3?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 04:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Too bad, there is a whole lot of plastic in that box, almost 2 complete suspension systems. DML had great values in their boxes, too bad that by the time people found this out, the kits were all gone. I only got mine because the Ben Franklin's Craft store was going out of business and I got it on clearance with a coupon. These kits originally ran for around $35 and back in the mid 90s that was too much to pay for any kit that did not have "Tamiya" on the box top or a multi media kit. The M4A1 was one of the first DML kits I bought, the T-80 and BMP-2 being the first and I was not too impressed with either (was happy to have kits of those vehicles out though). I did buy the M4A3E8 because it had a resin hull (multi media, so it must be worth it, right?).Quoted TextYou must mean the ever-elusive M4A1 75mm by DML. It goes for quite a pretty penny on eBay and most people have never seen one
Yep - I've never seen one of them
Just recently, I traded for a DML M51 Isherman and that kit comes with an extra turret so you can make an M50 if you so desire. All the M51 uses is less than 5 parts from the M50 turret sprue and they give you the entire turret! DML is great in that they give you so many parts in some of their kits. Sometimes I wonder how they get all the plastic in the box.
TUGA
#034
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,718 posts
Armorama: 1,130 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 04:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
DML is great in that they give you so many parts in some of their kits. Sometimes I wonder how they get all the plastic in the box.
One DML Sherman that also have lots of parts is - Firefly Ic hybrid DML #9037 - it have three diferent noses, two sets of wheels, two diferent track link blocks and lots of other parts. I think that the parts not used are more than those used
.My actual Sherman collection - they are at the workbench now
Firefly Vc DML #6031
M4A4 DML #6035
M4A4 w/ rocKets DML #6041
Firefly Ic hybrid DML #9037
M4A1 ITALAEREI #225
M4A2 JUMBO ITALERI #253
M4A3 Calliope ITALERI #288
M4 US Marines ITALERI #6389
M4A3 TAMIYA 35122
M4A3E2 TAMIYA 35139
M4A3 105 mm TAMIYA 35251
M4/Ic Composite VERLINDEN #270 (only upper hull and turret)
M32 ITALERI #203 (lower hull and suspension for above)
more
M4 detail set ABER #35032
M4 Tracks DML #38020
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextDML is great in that they give you so many parts in some of their kits. Sometimes I wonder how they get all the plastic in the box.
One DML Sherman that also have lots of parts is - Firefly Ic hybrid DML #9037 - it have three diferent noses, two sets of wheels, two diferent track link blocks and lots of other parts. I think that the parts not used are more than those used
My actual Sherman collection - they are at the workbench now
Firefly Vc DML #6031
M4A4 DML #6035
M4A4 w/ rocKets DML #6035
Firefly Ic hybrid DML #9037
M4A1 ITALAEREI #225
M4A2 JUMBO ITALERI #253
M4A3 Calliope ITALERI #288
M4 US Marines ITALERI #6389
M4A3 TAMIYA 35122
M4A3E2 TAMIYA 35139
M4A3 105 mm TAMIYA 35251
M4/Ic Composite VERLINDEN #270 (only upper hull and turret)
M32 ITALERI #203 (lower hull and suspension for above)
more
M4 detail set ABER #35032
M4 Tracks DML #38020
Jose--the Fire Fly is one super kit. It went together with little fitting problems. I think it is a fine one. However, my favorite Sherman remains Tamiya's Heavy Sherman...great model.
DJ
TUGA
#034
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,718 posts
Armorama: 1,130 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:54 AM UTC
Hi,
TMMI magazine May/June has a good article about building four diferent Shermans from the two TAMIYA M4A3 (35250 and 35251), one of them in british markings.
TMMI magazine May/June has a good article about building four diferent Shermans from the two TAMIYA M4A3 (35250 and 35251), one of them in british markings.
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 876 posts
Armorama: 606 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 08:11 AM UTC
I'm not sure but I think Armored Brigade or Cheasapeke might make an M4a1 early upper hull. I lucked out and got mine from a fella on the web Gonna build a correct m32 with it.
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:04 AM UTC
I got my M4A1 hull with direct vision slots from The Barrel Store in Canada. Cannot remember the manufacturer, I think it was from The Tank Workshop, but if you go to their site, you can find it. Its resin, but you need to scratch the engine deck covers etc. HTH
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
Armorama: 1,797 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
... you can put the Tamiya M4A3 75mm turret on the Italeri M4A1 hull. It used to be done by modelers all the time.
Sorry, Rob. Not exactly true. We may have done it, but that doesn't make it historically accurate.
Mike Canady on Missing Links has almost made a career out of this, but I'll try to give the Reader's Digest Condensed version:
Almost all M4A1s with a 75mm gun with late big hatches (like on the front of the Italeri M4A1 kit) were duplex drive (amphibious) Sherms and had extra hardware on the hulls and turret that doesn't come in any injection-molded kit. You may see some that are fairly stripped down of skirts, shrouds, props, etc., but they still have plenty of DD hardware hanging on their hulls.
Mike has found a very few photos that appear to be non-DD 75mm late-large-hatch M4A1s in action in Europe. Even these are not totally convincing, but if you want to do it, build it. Just be prepared to defend yourself if you ever take it to a contest.
Also, their appears to be cast-in armor build-ups on these late hull M4A1s that the Italeri hull does not have. Again, I refer you to Missing Links to get Mike's photos and drawings if you really want to build this version. If you are a neophyte Shermaholic, you may want to try a few other conversions before you try this one. Welded hulls are easier to convert than the cast ones, and even welded hulls can be trouble.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:45 PM UTC
I still think it is possible since "uncommon" or "unphotographed" to memean that there is no widespread evidence that it did exist. Still does not mean that it did not exist. Besides, using the applique armor from the Tamiya M4A3 and some putty/glue (or simple sheet styrene), the cast armor thickening of the M4A1 big hatch hull can be made to look like up armored cast hull. Heck of a lot easier than the conversion from an M4A3 to an M4A4
CaptainJack
Joined: March 17, 2002
KitMaker: 793 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:33 PM UTC
THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP
These guys are you number one stop Sherman shop!!
Jack the informer
These guys are you number one stop Sherman shop!!
Jack the informer
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP THE TANK WORK SHOP
These guys are you number one stop Sherman shop!!
Jack the informer
Jack--they put out superb material. I am using Discount Models in Michigan and deling with a fellow named Mark in securing their products (among other things). Mark is very responsive to questions and fires an e mail to you quickly. Good people. Adam passed along this useful bit of information and I am grateful to him. Where are you getting your Tank Work Shop products? I believe they are the only ones that make the tank waders and other quality parts.
DJ
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