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IDF M60 Blazer
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 08:52 AM UTC
I'm planning my next big build. I want to create an IDF M60. I will be using Italeri's M60 Blazer and the tracks from the Esci kit. What will I need to create an M60 in Israeli service? I've seen lots of upgrades and conversions, but don't know which is right for me. TIA.
cagkancakir
Joined: April 28, 2011
KitMaker: 434 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 09:11 AM UTC
Hi Matt,
It depends on which variant you plan to build, Magach 6, 6A or 6B?? (Magach = IDF designation of M60)
Depend on the variant, gun barrel, turret stowage, tracks and some other details will be change.
CC
It depends on which variant you plan to build, Magach 6, 6A or 6B?? (Magach = IDF designation of M60)
Depend on the variant, gun barrel, turret stowage, tracks and some other details will be change.
CC
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 09:16 AM UTC
Matt;
It depends on what model of M60 (Magach) you want to build and what time frame you are looking at. The ESCI M60 IDF BLazer is a good kit if you just want to build a straight Magach 6 from around the Peace for Galilee time periond (1982). If you are looking for something after that you are going to need the Legends upgrade set or scratch build some parts.
My advice is stay away from the ESCI tracks, they are pretty awful to fit together. The AFV Club tracks might be the way to go if you are looking for realistic, having said that later Magach 6 (gal and gal batash) use the Merkava 1 tracks, all metal with no rubber pads.
Hope this helps. Cheers.
It depends on what model of M60 (Magach) you want to build and what time frame you are looking at. The ESCI M60 IDF BLazer is a good kit if you just want to build a straight Magach 6 from around the Peace for Galilee time periond (1982). If you are looking for something after that you are going to need the Legends upgrade set or scratch build some parts.
My advice is stay away from the ESCI tracks, they are pretty awful to fit together. The AFV Club tracks might be the way to go if you are looking for realistic, having said that later Magach 6 (gal and gal batash) use the Merkava 1 tracks, all metal with no rubber pads.
Hope this helps. Cheers.
jwest21
Joined: October 16, 2006
KitMaker: 3,374 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 09:44 AM UTC
I believe Legends makes the tracks too
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 11:08 AM UTC
I have already assembled and painted the Esci tracks. They went together with no problem, for me. Would the Legends IDF Magach7A set work? Do you know of any items that would have to be scratch built to convert the M60 into the Magach7A?
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have already assembled and painted the Esci tracks. They went together with no problem, for me. Would the Legends IDF Magach7A set work? Do you know of any items that would have to be scratch built to convert the M60 into the Magach7A?
To start with, AFAIK the Magach 7 is based on M-60's and not on M-60A1's (these ones are the Magach 6's), so you'll need the rounded turret of the M-60 instead of the later "ballistic shaped" turret of the A1 and A3 versions.
Again, AFAIK the Magach 7 could be find in these configurations, usually equipped with AVDS-1790-5A engine -I may be wrong here-, additional passive armor, israeli Nachal Oz fire control sistem, and Merkava-based tracks:
- Magach 7, with armored mantlet and passive (and massive) armor blocks around the turret, glacis and side skirts. The armor "blocks are quite "squared", let's say.(you may find references to it as Magach 7 Alef, but a well informed man as Michael Mass stated some years ago that there was no such vehicle as a 7A, just Magach 7)
- Magach 7C or 7 "Gimel", with angled armored mantlet and passive armor package around the turret, glacis, and armored side skirts.
You can find some good pics on the web, for example :
http://idfmodelling.free.fr/magach7a.html
http://idfmodelling.free.fr/magach7c.html
And here:
http://www.idf-modelling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=152
rfbaer
Joined: June 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,696 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 01:18 PM UTC
With the kit you have, use, a main gun barrel with out the thermal sleeve and you've got a pretty good representation of a Magach 6B, circa "Peace for Galilee". You could also use the barrel w/ sleeve, main sight cover, and range finder covers, all from the M60A3 and have a Magach 6C, same time period.
The Merk tracks were part of the -Gal update, along with sighting, automotive and stowage improvements.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure about all this, but I could be wrong.
The Merk tracks were part of the -Gal update, along with sighting, automotive and stowage improvements.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure about all this, but I could be wrong.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 02:40 PM UTC
You won't need to get an M60 turret for any of the versions requiring one. All of Legends conversions (other than the ones simply requiring Blazer blocks) have complete turret in them. This thread has caused me to look through my stash. I just opened up the 6B Gal Batash and now I think I'll go ahead and build it. The turret casting is flawless. The entire upper is all one piece . The lower is another, which mates perfectly. And the rear basket has the covers and looks very well done.
Check out the Legend site-they do several variants:
Magach 6 MEM
Magach 6B Batash
Magach 6B Gal
Magach 7, 7a, 7c...
Since the turrets come with the armor already cast on (except the Blazer variants) you can use any M60 series kit out there.
Check out the Legend site-they do several variants:
Magach 6 MEM
Magach 6B Batash
Magach 6B Gal
Magach 7, 7a, 7c...
Since the turrets come with the armor already cast on (except the Blazer variants) you can use any M60 series kit out there.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 10:14 PM UTC
The kit I have is a copy of Esci's M60 Blazer, not an M60A1. Are the kit tracks correct for the 7A?
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The kit I have is a copy of Esci's M60 Blazer, not an M60A1. Are the kit tracks correct for the 7A?
I suggest you to search for pics on the web and choose a particular vehicle to depict with your model.
For the tracks, you can find reference in the links I mentioned previously.
Also : I have not my references here at work, but if I don´t recall it wrong, on the Magach 7 the air cleaners were the top loading ones, so check which ones you got in your kit. And check the optical rangefinder sight ont the turret left (those rounded bulged "thingies" that protruded on turret upper sides), I believe the left one was "blocked" due to the new FCS
AGAIN, for a Magach 7 you´ll need an M 60 turret, not the one in the Esci or Italeri kits, those are for M 60A1 or A3 versions.
Not to hijack this tread, but did Legend "correct" the original side skirts of their Magach 7 "A" conversion? They were completely off compared to any references available (I don´t like at all their turret either, but that´s for another moment I think)
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 01:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe kit I have is a copy of Esci's M60 Blazer, not an M60A1. Are the kit tracks correct for the 7A?
I suggest you to search for pics on the web and choose a particular vehicle to depict with your model.
For the tracks, you can find reference in the links I mentioned previously.
Also : I have not my references here at work, but if I don´t recall it wrong, on the Magach 7 the air cleaners were the top loading ones, so check which ones you got in your kit. And check the optical rangefinder sight ont the turret left (those rounded bulged "thingies" that protruded on turret upper sides), I believe the left one was "blocked" due to the new FCS
AGAIN, for a Magach 7 you´ll need an M 60 turret, not the one in the Esci or Italeri kits, those are for M 60A1 or A3 versions.
Not to hijack this tread, but did Legend "correct" the original side skirts of their Magach 7 "A" conversion? They were completely off compared to any references available (I don´t like at all their turret either, but that´s for another moment I think)
I have found that I need Merkava I sprockets and tracks. The turret will be replaced with the one in the Legends set. I am unsure if the side skirts have been corrected.
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 02:08 AM UTC
Also take your time to check the Legend´s turret, I believe it was designed using old Tamiya´s M-48 turret as a base, not a M-60 turret, so it may have some dimmensional and shape issues.
Good luck with your project!! I'm not at all "the" expert in this matter, but just ask for any help you need, and we'll try to figure it out
Good luck with your project!! I'm not at all "the" expert in this matter, but just ask for any help you need, and we'll try to figure it out
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 03:26 AM UTC
Was the 7A equipped with a mine roller? I have a KMT 7 and would like to use it on the 7A.
Also, according to this review:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/150
The turret is correct and the side skirts have been corrected.
Also, according to this review:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/150
The turret is correct and the side skirts have been corrected.
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 04:51 AM UTC
I can´t tell, since no pics of the actual parts provided are shown at the review... Just to start, the original side skirts were waaaaay too "high", so obviously not accurate. It seems that they may have corrected them (?)
The original turret -and we are talking about the kit released in the very early years of this century- did not look "right" either compared to reference pics, some people even preferred the AEF conversion, you figure...
Anyway, take a look here, this tread may help you :
http://www.idf-modelling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136
And please share your progress with us, its quite a massive beast
The original turret -and we are talking about the kit released in the very early years of this century- did not look "right" either compared to reference pics, some people even preferred the AEF conversion, you figure...
Anyway, take a look here, this tread may help you :
http://www.idf-modelling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136
And please share your progress with us, its quite a massive beast
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 05:22 AM UTC
I have seen photos of the 7A with the brackets to mount either a mine roller or dozer blade. I found that thread earlier, this morning. I will certainly be doing a step-by-step blog, on this one.
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 05:23 AM UTC
The Esci M60 'Blazer' IS an M60A1. A true M60'A0' has a turret that looks like an M48 turret (there are some small differences however). There is no true M60 plastic kit on the market with the exception of conversion kits (Legends, CMD turret etc). A lot of people just say M60 when they should say M60A1 or A3.
Jim
Jim
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 05:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Esci M60 'Blazer' IS an M60A1. A true M60'A0' has a turret that looks like an M48 turret (there are some small differences however). There is no true M60 plastic kit on the market with the exception of conversion kits (Legends, CMD turret etc). A lot of people just say M60 when they should say M60A1 or A3.
Jim
This is what I´m pointing out since my first reply.
For a Magach 7 you will need a M 60 turret and make your own passive armor, or the mentioned conversion kits...
Esci/Italeri/Academy/Tamiya M 60 A...´s are useful for Magach 6 models (but AFAIK not for the Magach 6 MEM and 6 Reish, since these ones have the M 60 round turret)
Enough for me with this thing
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 06:21 AM UTC
I misunderstood. I thought the turret provided into the conversion set was correct. I'll look in AEF Designs conversion.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 06:44 AM UTC
OK. I exhausted Google and no AEF Designs. Actually, I only found about five of their products. Checked Ebay, with poor results. Anybody know where else to look?
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 06:54 AM UTC
Matt;
if you are going for a Magach 7 (the kind with the sloped armor like the Merkava MKIII and NOT the Blazer armour as you have described in the thread name) then you should just need to buy:
http://www.www-legend.co.kr/00_search01.html?table=product&st=view&page=1&id=278&limit=&keykind=subject&keyword=magach&bo_class=&fpage=&spage=
and review here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/150
If, however, you are wanting to do an real "blazer" then the Esci or Italeri kits are good and you just need to decide what upgrade you want, i.e. thermal sleeve, wind sensor, larger basket etc. Legend also makes those. Good luck. Cheers.
if you are going for a Magach 7 (the kind with the sloped armor like the Merkava MKIII and NOT the Blazer armour as you have described in the thread name) then you should just need to buy:
http://www.www-legend.co.kr/00_search01.html?table=product&st=view&page=1&id=278&limit=&keykind=subject&keyword=magach&bo_class=&fpage=&spage=
and review here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/150
If, however, you are wanting to do an real "blazer" then the Esci or Italeri kits are good and you just need to decide what upgrade you want, i.e. thermal sleeve, wind sensor, larger basket etc. Legend also makes those. Good luck. Cheers.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 08:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Matt;
if you are going for a Magach 7 (the kind with the sloped armor like the Merkava MKIII and NOT the Blazer armour as you have described in the thread name) then you should just need to buy:
http://www.www-legend.co.kr/00_search01.html?table=product&st=view&page=1&id=278&limit=&keykind=subject&keyword=magach&bo_class=&fpage=&spage=
and review here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/150
If, however, you are wanting to do an real "blazer" then the Esci or Italeri kits are good and you just need to decide what upgrade you want, i.e. thermal sleeve, wind sensor, larger basket etc. Legend also makes those. Good luck. Cheers.
I do want to build the Magach 7A. Perhaps this is the reason for the confusion over the turret.
rf1964
Joined: October 03, 2010
KitMaker: 31 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 11:18 AM UTC
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 12:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello
As a suggestion see mine 1/72 M60 Blazer from ESCI.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/195604
I fail to see how your build would benefit. The only thing this has to do with the 7A is that it is a M60 Blazer. I have already completed a Blazer in 1:35.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 12:45 PM UTC
Since you're doing that version, go with the Legend conversion.
As for the other ones I mentioned earlier, the ones requiring an M60 turret do not require that you get one. They either have them in the conversion, or they have the turret with the armor package already added, as a one piece casting.
I didn't just read about this. I have the kits. They are not based on M48 turrets, although an M48 might have been used as a base. they are quite correct.
As for AEF Designs, I don't know who chooses them over Legend, but I wouldn't choose them to cast lumps of coal for Christmas stockings.
Below you'll see a somewhat finished AEF turret - easily the worst quality of any of the bad stuff I've ever purchased from them. The only reason I started purchasing their stuff in the early 90's was that references were not nearly as plentiful as they are now, so I and others I know would use the conversions as a basis for a lot of scratch building. The turret below was horrible, as were the Blazer blocks. I used as many as I could from an Esci kit, but as they are not all the same shape I had to use some of the AEF ones. Note how nice the cast accordion cover is behind the Legend mantlet. I had to fashion mine on the AEF turret myself - it did not even come with it. Similarly the battering ram I used for this model was horrible. I ended up chopping it up and fixing the rest from scratch.
By the way, the Legend M60 turrets match drawings and my own photos pretty darned well. Buy their products with confidence.
As for the other ones I mentioned earlier, the ones requiring an M60 turret do not require that you get one. They either have them in the conversion, or they have the turret with the armor package already added, as a one piece casting.
I didn't just read about this. I have the kits. They are not based on M48 turrets, although an M48 might have been used as a base. they are quite correct.
As for AEF Designs, I don't know who chooses them over Legend, but I wouldn't choose them to cast lumps of coal for Christmas stockings.
Below you'll see a somewhat finished AEF turret - easily the worst quality of any of the bad stuff I've ever purchased from them. The only reason I started purchasing their stuff in the early 90's was that references were not nearly as plentiful as they are now, so I and others I know would use the conversions as a basis for a lot of scratch building. The turret below was horrible, as were the Blazer blocks. I used as many as I could from an Esci kit, but as they are not all the same shape I had to use some of the AEF ones. Note how nice the cast accordion cover is behind the Legend mantlet. I had to fashion mine on the AEF turret myself - it did not even come with it. Similarly the battering ram I used for this model was horrible. I ended up chopping it up and fixing the rest from scratch.
By the way, the Legend M60 turrets match drawings and my own photos pretty darned well. Buy their products with confidence.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 01:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Since you're doing that version, go with the Legend conversion.
I have some experience with Legend's resin and found it a joy to work with. On one of my builds, I ordered sets from Verlinden, Legend and Tank Workshop. The TWS was the worst, with Verlinden and Legend being quite beautiful. From what I have read, I will need the Legend conversion, sprockets for a Merkava I, and tracks from a Merkava I. I have now sourced all of these. I plan on starting the build in February and will spend my time researching the 7. I also understand that the only differences in the 7, 7A, and 7C were the drive train. This, of course, will not be visible.
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