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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
dragon rant......short and sweet
J8kob_F
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Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: October 24, 2012
KitMaker: 202 posts
Armorama: 104 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 05:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My point in this discussion is that WE ARE lucky to have all the high tech kits of today- they shouldn't be taken for granted. Even if one is confronted by a badly engineered kit, there's no reason why the problems couldn't be worked out with a little bit of thought and some patience. It's quite possible that the bean counters at DRAGON might have gotten into the act with the engineering department regarding cost overruns in the design phase of their T28 project? Bean counters can and will ruin anybody's day; The bean counters' jobs are to keep the cost of doing business as low as possible, so quality will inevitably suffer in the end... My point in comparing 1950s through 1990s models to what WE ARE EXTREMELY FORTUNATE to have here in the 21st Century, is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand; Some of the often frustrating DRAGON kits are STILL much better than the stuff we had to deal with years ago. I cannot stress the credo enough regarding difficult, badly engineered and frustrating kits: "ADAPT, OVERCOME and IMPROVISE"... I'm sure that you'll experience the rewards of some extra pride and a sense of accomplishment in your work after having successfully completed an especially recalcitrant project...



I agree with you that we are fortunate to live in these days with very high living standards etc. I do however think that even though something is a wast improvement one should always be allowed to ask for more. Could you imagine were we would be now if everybody just stepped back and stopped trying to improve something that is already good to perfect 30 years ago?

Jakob
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 11:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I dunno though how the comparison holds. I was building models in the 70's and the average tank kit had like what, 3 parts and some tracks? And information was less prevalent, so detailing was an awful lot less extensive than today. I'd also suggest that the state of the art for detailing was a lot less advanced as well. in other words, we tolerated a heck of a lot less accuracy back then, building kits that would be intolerable if they came out today. I remember when the 70's Tamiya 1/35th kits seemed like hyperdetailed masterpieces. . .

I'd also suggest its not out of bounds to expect a kit with vastly greater complexity than a kit from the 90's to have good fitting parts and usable instructions. Mind you, I am OK with buying kits that require some TLC and scratchbuilding and putty work but I reserve the right to complain a bit when a $70-100+ kit has glaring traps in the instructions, major pieces that don't fit, or PE that is both inaccurate and borderline impossible to use (Dragon T28, I'm looking at you. . .).




I agree 110%, and could not say that in a better way
mpeplinski
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Michigan, United States
Joined: January 17, 2006
KitMaker: 487 posts
Armorama: 182 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 11:59 AM UTC
Good day Gents
In the end ,we're much better off than say ten years ago.More choices,better selection and more esoteric kits coming along. Something for everyone.This leaves me to wonder about the way some of the companies are conducting business.Are they in a hurry to get the kits out ahead of competition?I don't think that matters a lot anymore as we see the same subject produced by different companies being released at the same time. I think it's a race to get it out first,and damn the consequences relating to accuracy and quality.Why bother? people will buy it,and through feedback,correct and reissue the kit with a few different parts and call it good.Like one supervisor said to me once,why is there never enough time to do it right the first time,but always plenty of time to do it over?.I can't believe some companies producing an incorrect kit 3 times in a row,knowing it has faults after the first one,then issuing a kit with all the needed corrections,and selling the corrected parts to fix the other kits they produced...can you say arrogant?.Ahhh well,that's my take,and it's what I believe in my world,your world may vary.

Mike
andymacrae
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: September 01, 2005
KitMaker: 409 posts
Armorama: 402 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 09:32 AM UTC
I'd be more worried about the dimensions of the T-28 if this review is correct?

http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/usa/dml6750reviewcs_1.html
PantherF
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Indiana, United States
Joined: June 10, 2005
KitMaker: 6,188 posts
Armorama: 5,960 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 10:44 AM UTC
Ah! Details, details! I am working on one right now and it's looking good.

Much better in price than the alternative.



~ Jeff
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 02:01 PM UTC
Hi, Jakob! Well spoken, and I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with asking for better and better kits. If we didn't ask, imagine the state that this hobby would be in!!! Of course, we have to pay a premium for all this progress... Maybe I'm still not making myself clear enough- There's NO EXCUSE FOR POOR ENGINEERING AND HAVING TO PAY PREMIUM PRICES FOR A DOG OF A KIT. I personally don't mind paying more for something that: A- The kit is something that I really want, or have waited a long time for, and B- If I need to make a fist-full of corrections on this piece that I've wanted and waited for, then SO BE IT... Making corrections and dealing with a bunch of badly engineered, misshapen or downright wrong parts are ALL A PART OF THIS HOBBY. If this weren't so, then WHY are there so many resin updates, PE, and "Correction" kits out there? Please bear in mind that I'm not defending DRAGON- What I DO take issue with is the fact that WE HAVE ALL BECOME SO SPOILED AND LAZY BY TODAY'S GREAT "HIGH TECH KITS", so when we DO fall upon a junky kit, we're put out because EXTRA WORK needs to be done with the damned thing to get it right. My comparison of the older kits to the stuff that we have today is only meant to point out that a modern kit with a lot of problems IS STILL BETTER than the rude, crude and downright wrong junk that some of us had the dubious pleasure of building before CAD engineering and Slide-molding... For example, the new ICM 1/35 G4 is a pleasure to build when I compare it to my ADV/AZIMUT G4 that I bought for THREE TIMES THE PRICE OF THE ICM G4 TWENTY YEARS AGO... Thanks for reading...
stef29
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: October 10, 2012
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 04:00 PM UTC
I love a good argument, but liking or disliking DML; liking or disliking complexity; being a nut&bolt counter or not; these are all matters of personal taste and opinion, no?

Therefore no one can be right or wrong - its what makes us as individuals happy since its a hobby. And one can't assume others approach this hobby for the exact same reasons as themselves. I feel this thread is counter to our hobby, that in the end should be for the enjoyment of the hobbyist and no other.

But to set one matter straight: $70 today is the equivalent of about $15 circa 1975, and I remember paying about that for Tamiya armor kits.

Oh well, I probably just added more fodder for additional debate. Anyway, happy Memorial Day Weekend, cheers to our troops, and lift a glass those who gave everything for the rest of us.

M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Friday, May 24, 2013 - 12:15 AM UTC
Hi, All! To the guys that "hate" DRAGON kits: If you dislike them so much, don't buy them. If the kit in question is something that you absolutely "must have", and there are NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES, buy it anyway and deal with the problems. If you've had bad experiences with DRAGON kits, you should prepare yourself to the possibility that the next one you buy will also have problems. If the kit goes together without any hitches, all the better for you. It's as simple as that...
Biggles2
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2013 - 02:46 AM UTC
Dragon is a love/hate relationship. I love the fact that Dragon released a Panther A with very well done zimmerit; I hate the fact that Dragon neither molded on the toolbrackets, nor left a gap in the zimmerit texture to add a bracket. It's either Dremel,cut, scrape, file and sand a trough to fit a PE tool bracket, or just lay it on the zimm surface and putty the resulting tiny gaps. Or buy their previous Panther A without zimmerit and use Cavalier, etc., et all, AM zimmerit.
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