Armor/AFV: Techniques
From Weathering to making tent rolls, discuss it here.
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Reason for using primer? when, when not?
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So what is your response to folks who do NOT use primer, but produce high quality models?

Exceptions prove the rule. If I state that generally players do not score 100 points in a basketball game, I am correct. And yet Wilt Chamberlain did it. Once. An imperfect analogy, as I am not sure all of my detractors rise to that level of excellence. But you get the point.
It depends on what paint is used (enamels make it far easier), and whether one uses pe. Pretty much everyone has confirmed that metal parts require it. And in my mind at least some photoetch is required for almost any project. Even those who denounce pe still use photoetch grills, chains, etc.
Here's another consideration. Using primer allows one to see any mistake or blemishes BEFORE painting. So, by not using them, detractors are running the risk that there are blemishes and mistakes they did not see. To me the proposition is silly. It is like saying that Russian Roulette is not a bad idea because there are plenty of examples of people doing it and coming out unscathed.
It is really easy to do, and the Tamiya fine primer costs about10 bucks and can last three or four kits. Why anyone would not prime is UNFATHOMABLE to me. And how it can be seriously be debated, often with snarky insolence, is simply befuddling.




You should prepare yourself for being befuddled quite often.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Those encouraging newbies not to use primer are professing what should be tantamount to heresy.



Really....and what would you know of heresies? I'd like you to stop by the office for a little chat.

Regards,

Tomás de Torquemada, O.P.

Grand Inquisitor


Please, fer chrissakes, don't invoke Odin in your next reply.
McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:39 AM UTC
The Grand Inquistor you are not. I have stated my position quite succintly, and will leave it at that. This is as fruitless to me as debating the color of the sky.
hliu24
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:39 AM UTC
Thank you all anyway, I know all of you trying to help.

.....shame on me, my painting experience only limited to hand brush with tamiya paint when I was a kid....., now i am back to the modeling, trying to understand some modern tech/concept/air brushing.....soon will see how things work.

Jay
McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you all anyway, I know all of you trying to help.

.....shame on me, my painting experience only limited to hand brush with tamiya paint when I was a kid....., now i am back to the modeling, trying to understand some modern tech/concept/air brushing.....soon will see how things work.

Jay



If you are seriously interested in pursuing this hobby, I cannot recommend an airbrush highly enough. What model is best or appropriate is something to be debated. I suggest you post queries here specifying your price range and situation. Hopefully knowledgeable persons can lead you in teh right direction on that that. There are also forums specifically dedicated to airbrushes. Those might be of greater benefit to you.
Here is something else to consider. If you are familiar with the movie Groundhog's Day, you will know it takes time and a lot of repititon to get good at anything. Harold Ramis stated Bill Murray's character was there for at least 10 years, and he has said event hat is probably unrealistic because of all the time he wasted. Ramis said it takes about ten years to get good at anything. Another rule of thumb is the socalled 10,000 hour rule, sometimes truncated to being the 1000 hour rule.
I think that it might take a little less time than that, provided one does not have spells where they drop out for months on end. But it illustrates the point that practice makes perfect. I consider myself firmly in the intermediate stage, with lots of room for improvement. But when I look back at how I have improved, it is rewarding. Just keep this in mind to help you keep building and building. That's the secret to learning and improving.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Grand Inquistor you are not. I have stated my position quite succintly, and will leave it at that. This is as fruitless to me as debating the color of the sky.



And, you're not the final word on what constitutes any absolutes regarding modeling techniques. Opinions are like paintbrushes, everybody has one. Everybody also has their own preferences when it comes to modeling techniques and their experiences. Just because one person's methods didn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for another; so, quit the smarmy talk and stop disparaging others for offering their opinions on the subject.
McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:00 AM UTC
Excuse me, but I will write what I please, within forum guidelines. I have courage of conviction. The OP apparently is just starting out. I will speak out when I feel patently bad advise is given.
alanmac
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:08 AM UTC
Well, well , well I see that the intolerant Mr McKeever has found his way onto Armorama, that's after his remarks and insults had made him unpopular over on Missing Lynx.


Watch out for this one lads. Heaven forbid you should disagree with the modelling world according to him. Debate and a difference of opinion isn't something he understands as is perfectly illustrated by his posts in this thread.
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Excuse me, but I will write what I please, within forum guidelines. I have courage of conviction. The OP apparently is just starting out. I will speak out when I feel patently bad advise is given.


Gentlemen, this thread is about primer. No one cares about your personalities, so let's keep to the topic or I will encourage the moderators to delete or edit the posts. Primer has its advantages and disadvantages, and valid points can be raised on both sides of the topic. There is no "one right way" in this or most model topics, as I have seen some great models painted with rattle cans, for example. So let's keep it to specifics if you don't mind.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Excuse me, but I will write what I please, within forum guidelines. I have courage of conviction. The OP apparently is just starting out. I will speak out when I feel patently bad advise is given.



Everybody has different experiences re primer/no primer. One size doesn't fit all.
junglejim
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:09 AM UTC
Hmmm, how did that 'speaking out' work for you over at Missing Lynx? Trying to stir things up here now?

Jim
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmmm, how did that 'speaking out' work for you over at Missing Lynx? Trying to stir things up here now?

Jim



McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 05:16 AM UTC
Wenn man nicht reden kann, muss man sich schweigen.
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 06:01 AM UTC
I have got to say peeps that nothing D. McKeever has said in this thread struck me as confrontational as it is all just his opinion. I have no idea as what is being referred to on "Missing Lynx" and no desire to know as it is the conduct of members here that interests me not their actions on other sites as that is a matter for the staff there. Now everyone as a recently deceased critique and director use to say on British adverts "Calm down Dear".
hliu24
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 06:50 AM UTC
I was ONLY trying to learn.........

Regards

Jay
TotemWolf
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was ONLY trying to learn.........

Regards

Jay


You've done nothing wrong.

As a hobbyest who is himself recently returned to the pursuit I would advise you to take to heart both side of the answer given here, minus the rhetoric, and go with what works for you.

I have learned a lot by reading multiple sources on the same subjects, be that priming, weathering, materials, tools and so on. Then, based on what I felt I could do, I would try the different methods and use the one that gave ME the best result.

Thank you for asking and learning.

Have fun at the bench.
ChrisDM
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I like to prime, so the hell what? Its my models I'm painting. If you like to great. If you don't why should I care, its your model not mine!



I care because ostensibly the purpose of forums like these is to inform and instruct persons of all skill ranges.



Lol! So you misquote me wildly out of context to prove your point;

I see you quoted this part of the one post I have previously made on this thread whilst skilfully LEAVING OUT the part where I say I prefer to prime, AND THE PART where I advise the original poster to paint half a kit with primer and half without to test it for himself.

Class act Mr McKeever, hilariously class act Politicians couldn't be less misleading
SgtRam
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I was ONLY trying to learn.........

Regards

Jay


You've done nothing wrong.

As a hobbyest who is himself recently returned to the pursuit I would advise you to take to heart both side of the answer given here, minus the rhetoric, and go with what works for you.

I have learned a lot by reading multiple sources on the same subjects, be that priming, weathering, materials, tools and so on. Then, based on what I felt I could do, I would try the different methods and use the one that gave ME the best result.

Thank you for asking and learning.

Have fun at the bench.



Jay

Ditto for me, you have done nothing wrong. At times modeling was self learning experience,but there is a lot you can learn here, never be afraid to ask. There are a lot of experienced modelers here, who will offer their opinion, but at times you have to take that advice and find out what works best for you.

Kevin
McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I was ONLY trying to learn.........

Regards

Jay


You've done nothing wrong.

As a hobbyest who is himself recently returned to the pursuit I would advise you to take to heart both side of the answer given here, minus the rhetoric, and go with what works for you.

I have learned a lot by reading multiple sources on the same subjects, be that priming, weathering, materials, tools and so on. Then, based on what I felt I could do, I would try the different methods and use the one that gave ME the best result.

Thank you for asking and learning.

Have fun at the bench.



+1 Although I do standby my strongly worded implorations.
lespauljames
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 07:35 AM UTC
I as primarily a brushpainter swear by primer, for Armour, which allows for me to achieve brush mark free paint finishes, with thin layers that stick, without pooling or other unsavoury results, using sometimes very thin layers.
and for figures, for exactly he same reason, but with figured you cannot afford to layer on thick paint.

If i were using an airbrush, if my base paint were durable enough, I would use that. if not, i would use some primer. i would not paint vallejo straight on to plastic. however with tamiya i would.

its all subjective and down to the individuals desires and needs in this hobby, if you prime, good, if you don't, good. if you like your results. Perfect, isn't that all we can ask for?..
McKeever
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 08:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I like to prime, so the hell what? Its my models I'm painting. If you like to great. If you don't why should I care, its your model not mine!



I care because ostensibly the purpose of forums like these is to inform and instruct persons of all skill ranges.



Lol! So you misquote me wildly out of context to prove your point;

I see you quoted this part of the one post I have previously made on this thread whilst skilfully LEAVING OUT the part where I say I prefer to prime, AND THE PART where I advise the original poster to paint half a kit with primer and half without to test it for himself.

Class act Mr McKeever, hilariously class act Politicians couldn't be less misleading



I never meant to represent you as not being pro primer, and am really not sure why you would think I was doing that.. I simply responded to your comment as to why I would care and 2) disputed your assertion that it obscures detail.
I cannot possibly have taken your words out of context in that all one has to do is scroll up.
Bellerophon
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 01:07 PM UTC
One of my father's stories was how he was letting sheep from one pasture into another, and held up a pole across the open gate that the sheep had to jump over. Then he took away the pole and guess what: all the rest of the sheep jumped too!

Advice is fine, but it's no substitute for experimentation and your own experience!

Personally, I like to primer for all the above reasons. Also if weathering involves wear, you want the primer under there so you can expose it.
Wolfsangel
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Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 07:13 AM UTC
Jay, ignore the bickering. It's like dealing with anybody who is extreme on any issue. Take it for what it is and move on.

This is, in my opinion, an art form and a hobby. Thankfully we have a vast multitude of choices in subject matter and finishing products. Therefore, I recommend to try everything at least once.
Spray can Auto Primer (ala Tony Greenland): Tried it!
Airbrushing Auto Primer: Tried it!
Airbrushing Laquer-based Model Primer: Tried it!
Airbrushing Acrylic-based Craft Primer: Tried it!
Airbrushing Acrylic-based Model Primer: Tried it!
Airbrushing Oils: Tried it! (never again though)
Brush painting Laquer-based Primer: Tried it!
Brush painting Acrylic-based Primer: Tried it!
Finishing without primer: Tried it!
This is probably why I don't finish too many kits; Too much experimenting...

Like they say, "The proofs in the puddin'". If you're happy with the end result, that's all that matters! If you're not happy (herein lies the beauty of being an Armor Modeler) your vehicle may suffer some battle damage, have a gypsy caravan worth of stowage, or have a thick coat of mud from the Spring thaws. And... then you're happy again! See how that works out?!

So try it!
Charlie
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Try reading Greenland, Mig Jimenez, or Rinaldi.
Again, enamels it is arguable. Acrylics (including Tamiya not a good idea. But I do not think it is a good idea in any case, particularly if is using even some photoetch. Hear me now and believe me later.




Wow, it must be silly season. Three forums I've looked at recently and on all of them threads have got out of hand because of a lack of common courtesies.

Firstly, your original comments in this thread are correct, answered the OP and put over your view. The stuff about why it's a no brainer and inferring stupidity with those of us who don't prime is where the thread went south.

And yes,we all know that only the best painters in the hobby(art) use primers. They also use the best materials. They use stacks of PE, metal barrels, metal tracks, resin upgrades, latest cuttting edge painting techniques, add and correct details I can't even see and scratch build like Monet.

The point is it's horses for courses. People will respect your view if you respect the fact that there are other ways to achieve an acceptable result.

For my part I don't prime with a specific purpose designed and sold-as pimer. But I do usually use a Tamiya rattle can spray to lay down a base coat. This has the same basic effect.

For someone new, as a safety baseline, I'd reccomend a fine surface primer pretty much as a starting point. From there they can experiment and find out if it's required and what they can and can't get away with.

Also don't drop the "it's only $10bucks a can" thing so fiippantly. It comes off as elitist. Many of us are struggling under very tight budgets but remain in this hobby because we love it ....

In short, prime if in doubt and for best results. Don't if it works for you.

Brent

ps my blog has all brush painted, non primed stuff in it - beware!
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 09:58 AM UTC
I prime, but did not always. Keep in mind the substance of the kit, styrene, resin, vinyl, aluminum, brass et al respond differently to different primers.

I avoid enamel, laquer or any solvent based primers over any vinyl surface. AFV Club Centurian gun mantlet covers and road wheels come immediately to mind. Resin responds well to laquer based auto primers, and enamels but seem to shun acrylic even after a thorough cleansing.

I've used them all on styrene.

Dark primers and light primers can be used for color modulation as well.

Experimentation is key. Then do what works best for you!

G