Hey, Guys
just wondering about primer.
Thank you so much
Jay
Hosted by Darren Baker
Reason for using primer? when, when not?
hliu24
Joined: November 19, 2010
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 06:29 AM UTC
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 06:41 AM UTC
It fills in small imperfections,it pulls any multi media projects together providing a uniform basecoat,it helps covering over dark plastic when using light paints.
That being said its not always necessary
That being said its not always necessary
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 06:58 AM UTC
My understanding it is somewhat less necessary with enamels. With acrlyics however, it is absolutely essential.
Go with Gunze or Tamiya primer.
Go with Gunze or Tamiya primer.
mat
Joined: November 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 08:50 AM UTC
when building resin kits, If you don't prime for some reason you need 20 coats of green before you stop seeing the resin
bronzey
Joined: January 06, 2012
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 09:05 AM UTC
primer is a must if you are doing paint brushing. i do all mine by brush and i always spray primer from a rattle can first. this gives the model a plain sheet to start on and more importantly it gives something for the paint to stick to. unprimed plasic can be very hard to paint without paint strokes being left. if do correctly, a white primer with your next coat being thinned down can give tones and highlights all in one coat without having to use oils. i havent done this myself yet but i have seen it done. i highly advise to always prime your work, its a small job that will improve the look in every way. as a example my latest work of a Chally was done all in brush and because i used a primer, there isnt a single beush stoke to be seen.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 10:40 AM UTC
I have never used it and use acrylics almost exclusively. (The acrylic related problems I've heard about - but never experienced - can be readily prevented by washing the model with detergent and an old toothbrush before painting.)
To get a uniform base, I just use a coat of the basic color rather than gray. Unless you are using a true primer surfacer, you are not going to fill any imperfections. Unlike a 1:1 car, you are not trying to achieve a smooth, glass-like finish. To take advantage of the surfacer you have to sand most of it away. That's nigh impossible with a tank model, plus you don't want to hide detail with thick paints.
Some recommend primers for metal parts. Maybe, but if anything prime them, not everything.
KL
To get a uniform base, I just use a coat of the basic color rather than gray. Unless you are using a true primer surfacer, you are not going to fill any imperfections. Unlike a 1:1 car, you are not trying to achieve a smooth, glass-like finish. To take advantage of the surfacer you have to sand most of it away. That's nigh impossible with a tank model, plus you don't want to hide detail with thick paints.
Some recommend primers for metal parts. Maybe, but if anything prime them, not everything.
KL
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 11:05 AM UTC
In a word, NO! First, practically all afv models have some sort of metal, even if just the grills.
One uses fine primers, not primers you buy in an autobody shop or hardware stores. These fine primers will not obscure detail if used properly.
This is really basic and, if one uses acrlyics, is really beyond dispute. All books I have ever read on the subject implore the use of primers.
One other thing--using primers help you see errors or defects before painting. While primed, it is still possible to correct those errors before painting.
I really do not see how this is even a discussion.
One uses fine primers, not primers you buy in an autobody shop or hardware stores. These fine primers will not obscure detail if used properly.
This is really basic and, if one uses acrlyics, is really beyond dispute. All books I have ever read on the subject implore the use of primers.
One other thing--using primers help you see errors or defects before painting. While primed, it is still possible to correct those errors before painting.
I really do not see how this is even a discussion.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 12:04 PM UTC
1st and foremost, primer is not gray lacquer based paint. It's main function as in the real world, is to help you see any imperfections that need to be dealt with before the 1st coat of paint. It's meant to be sanded and feathers out nicely.
Secondly, it acts as a bonding agent for paint on surfaces that normally paint has difficulty sticking to. PE is a prefect example.
3rd. Acrylic paints other then dark colors will have a tone difference when covering plastic, PE, and or resin. Primer lets you apply the paint to an even and uniform color surface.
Years ago, when acrylics 1st were introduced to the plastic hobby market, you really needed a primer coat, or the paint was a real bear to get to stick. That is not the case today. I use Tamiya, Model Master, and Lifecolor paints on raw plastic, and never had an issue with the paint adhering to the plastic.
As for primers themselves, I had issues with Model Master Acrylic primer not sticking to plastic very well. Tamiya's primer is lacquer based, and works perfectly every time. I use Gray 90% of the time, but I do use their white for bright colors, and where I need a gloss finish.
Joel
Secondly, it acts as a bonding agent for paint on surfaces that normally paint has difficulty sticking to. PE is a prefect example.
3rd. Acrylic paints other then dark colors will have a tone difference when covering plastic, PE, and or resin. Primer lets you apply the paint to an even and uniform color surface.
Years ago, when acrylics 1st were introduced to the plastic hobby market, you really needed a primer coat, or the paint was a real bear to get to stick. That is not the case today. I use Tamiya, Model Master, and Lifecolor paints on raw plastic, and never had an issue with the paint adhering to the plastic.
As for primers themselves, I had issues with Model Master Acrylic primer not sticking to plastic very well. Tamiya's primer is lacquer based, and works perfectly every time. I use Gray 90% of the time, but I do use their white for bright colors, and where I need a gloss finish.
Joel
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 12:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
In a word, NO! First, practically all afv models have some sort of metal, even if just the grills.
One uses fine primers, not primers you buy in an autobody shop or hardware stores. These fine primers will not obscure detail if used properly.
This is really basic and, if one uses acrlyics, is really beyond dispute. All books I have ever read on the subject implore the use of primers.
One other thing--using primers help you see errors or defects before painting. While primed, it is still possible to correct those errors before painting.
I really do not see how this is even a discussion.
I'm lazy and have little patience for some parts of this hobby, so I don't typically prime anything, and only use Tamiya acrylics. What I've done is started to use Mr. Surfacer lacquer thinner with Tamiya acrylics as it increases the 'bite' of the paint, even on photo-etch, metal barrels, etc. That's good enough for me, and I save myself some time.
sdk10159
Joined: December 08, 2005
KitMaker: 556 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 01:13 PM UTC
Jay,
I've been a modeler for over 30 years and I've never used primer, neither on plastic or resin and I've never had any problems. I spray Tamiya acrylics mainly, with occasional uses of Testers Acryp. To me, primer is an un-needed step.
However, lots of people swear by it. So, I say give it a try and see what works for you.
Steve
I've been a modeler for over 30 years and I've never used primer, neither on plastic or resin and I've never had any problems. I spray Tamiya acrylics mainly, with occasional uses of Testers Acryp. To me, primer is an un-needed step.
However, lots of people swear by it. So, I say give it a try and see what works for you.
Steve
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 01:28 PM UTC
^^Ditto.^^
I have never used primer. I use Testors Model Master Enamel paints exclusively and have no issues of covering different surfaces such as PE, resin, plastic, etc.
I have never used primer. I use Testors Model Master Enamel paints exclusively and have no issues of covering different surfaces such as PE, resin, plastic, etc.
mother
Joined: January 29, 2004
KitMaker: 3,836 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 01:39 PM UTC
I never respond to these two sided questions, but I thought I would join in on this. Primer…no, never, nada have I ever primed. I also think it’s a waste of time and money. As to a bonding agent that’s a crock. I’ve painted with many paints and never once have I ever had a problem with paints in anyway nor coming off using making tape.
Like Steve said, some people swear by it while others do not, it comes down to how you feel about it. Then there’s the follow up question…which primer do I use. Again a loaded question for a thousand answers. Primer is primer, its sprays, coats and colors, yes there is one difference, don’t use enamel over acrylics as it may, “saying this loosely” may crack. I’ve never had this problem and I spray Testors Dull Coat enamel over MM’s or Tamiys paints when doing aircrafts once the weathering and decals are finished.
Happy Modeling,
Joe
Like Steve said, some people swear by it while others do not, it comes down to how you feel about it. Then there’s the follow up question…which primer do I use. Again a loaded question for a thousand answers. Primer is primer, its sprays, coats and colors, yes there is one difference, don’t use enamel over acrylics as it may, “saying this loosely” may crack. I’ve never had this problem and I spray Testors Dull Coat enamel over MM’s or Tamiys paints when doing aircrafts once the weathering and decals are finished.
Happy Modeling,
Joe
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 02:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This is really basic and, if one uses acrlyics, is really beyond dispute.
I'll dispute it. I've never had a problem cleaning a model and putting down two coats of the base color in lieu of a primer coat and color coat. The first color coat provides a solid color base as well as showing imperfections.
Quoted Text
All books I have ever read on the subject implore the use of primers.
Read a book or article by Steve Zaloga.
Quoted Text
I really do not see how this is even a discussion.
Because people are successful both using a primer and not.
KL
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 04:24 PM UTC
Try reading Greenland, Mig Jimenez, or Rinaldi.
Again, enamels it is arguable. Acrylics (including Tamiya not a good idea. But I do not think it is a good idea in any case, particularly if is using even some photoetch. Hear me now and believe me later.
Again, enamels it is arguable. Acrylics (including Tamiya not a good idea. But I do not think it is a good idea in any case, particularly if is using even some photoetch. Hear me now and believe me later.
lukiftian
Joined: March 12, 2010
KitMaker: 791 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 06:46 PM UTC
The problem with primer is how it's applied. Many modelers use the wrong type and they use too much. For plastic kits with very minor additions of resin and PE (say your average eduard set) it isn't necessary at all, and you lose fine detail. If you're using white metal parts or a lot of PE it's a good idea, and in this case I'd recommend an acrylic primer that can be airbrushed, or if you can find it Tamiya Superfine white, which can be carefully sprayed from the can and dries in about 3 hours.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 - 09:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Try reading Greenland, Mig Jimenez, or Rinaldi.
Again, enamels it is arguable. Acrylics (including Tamiya not a good idea. But I do not think it is a good idea in any case, particularly if is using even some photoetch. Hear me now and believe me later.
I believe the experiences I have had on models I have built and painted myself (without priming) for decades. I also believe that people who use primers are likewise happy with their results.
What is a fact rather than a belief is that priming is not an absolute nor a requirement to make a nice model.
KL
jon_a_its
Joined: April 29, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 12:37 AM UTC
At the risk of being controversial (!) 
there are probably many more answers than modelers, as each modeler will have more than one method/preference that works for them!
My h'apennorth (2c) worth, as an average/improving modeler/painter, & of course your mileage may vary.
I have used:
Humbrol Enamels: never primed, good results with brush.
Tamiya Acrylics: prime only if major bodge-job or conversion, Brilliant sprayed, not good results with brush.
Vallejo Model-Air (a/b) & Model-color (thinned for a/b, a little for brush) for: essential to prime with SOMETHING! I couldn't get it to stick on alu barrels for instance.
Testors Acrylic: sprayed, not primed, no issues.
Revell Aqua: sprayed, not primed, no issues,
Primers Used:
Halfords' Acrylic Lacquer Primer & filler/primer. (a UK motor factors) a high-bite filler/primer, very sandable/workable, sticks to everything, inc. the crumbly cheese Fonderie Miniatures use instead of plastic,
, hi-gloss dining-tables, children, etc.
Vallejo Polyurethane primer: sticks to everything I've built so far, available in lots of military colours, brill to work over with more colour, or even as a finish coat! But doesn't
sand well.
Tamiya Acrylics, makes a good primer as well as top-coat.
Future/Pledge sprayed or dipped, esp canopies, sticks well, gives paint something to bite on.
Ordinary Acrylic House paint, in tester/sample pots, in brown/sand for groundwork, sticks well & cheap!
there are probably many more answers than modelers, as each modeler will have more than one method/preference that works for them!My h'apennorth (2c) worth, as an average/improving modeler/painter, & of course your mileage may vary.
I have used:
Humbrol Enamels: never primed, good results with brush.
Tamiya Acrylics: prime only if major bodge-job or conversion, Brilliant sprayed, not good results with brush.
Vallejo Model-Air (a/b) & Model-color (thinned for a/b, a little for brush) for: essential to prime with SOMETHING! I couldn't get it to stick on alu barrels for instance.
Testors Acrylic: sprayed, not primed, no issues.
Revell Aqua: sprayed, not primed, no issues,
Primers Used:
Halfords' Acrylic Lacquer Primer & filler/primer. (a UK motor factors) a high-bite filler/primer, very sandable/workable, sticks to everything, inc. the crumbly cheese Fonderie Miniatures use instead of plastic,
, hi-gloss dining-tables, children, etc.Vallejo Polyurethane primer: sticks to everything I've built so far, available in lots of military colours, brill to work over with more colour, or even as a finish coat! But doesn't
sand well.
Tamiya Acrylics, makes a good primer as well as top-coat.
Future/Pledge sprayed or dipped, esp canopies, sticks well, gives paint something to bite on.
Ordinary Acrylic House paint, in tester/sample pots, in brown/sand for groundwork, sticks well & cheap!
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
KitMaker: 717 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 01:22 AM UTC
this is one of the most hilarious threads I have ever read! 
'you MUST used it! I can't see how people could possibly dispute that!'
'You don't need it, its all a load of hooey!'
Do whatever works for you for goodness sake.
I like to prime, so the hell what? Its my models I'm painting. If you like to great. If you don't why should I care, its your model not mine!
Jay; get an old kit, or a cheap one and prime half and don't prime the other half. wash the kit first to make sure its a fair test; then observe the results and do what works for you
'you MUST used it! I can't see how people could possibly dispute that!'
'You don't need it, its all a load of hooey!'
Do whatever works for you for goodness sake.
I like to prime, so the hell what? Its my models I'm painting. If you like to great. If you don't why should I care, its your model not mine!
Jay; get an old kit, or a cheap one and prime half and don't prime the other half. wash the kit first to make sure its a fair test; then observe the results and do what works for you
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 02:49 AM UTC
For plastic kits with very minor additions of resin and PE (say your average eduard set) it isn't necessary at all, and you lose fine detail.
I disagree about losing detail, PROVIDED you use correct primer. As you said, Tamiya is excellent. I like the white stuff.
Again, this seems like a nobrainer to me. I cannot comprehend how it could seriously be disputed [at all].
I disagree about losing detail, PROVIDED you use correct primer. As you said, Tamiya is excellent. I like the white stuff.
Again, this seems like a nobrainer to me. I cannot comprehend how it could seriously be disputed [at all].
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 03:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
For plastic kits with very minor additions of resin and PE (say your average eduard set) it isn't necessary at all, and you lose fine detail.
I disagree about losing detail, PROVIDED you use correct primer. As you said, Tamiya is excellent. I like the white stuff.
Again, this seems like a nobrainer to me. I cannot comprehend how it could seriously be disputed [at all].
So what is your response to folks who do NOT use primer, but produce high quality models?
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 03:55 AM UTC
[quote]I cannot comprehend how it could seriously be disputed [at all].
Because modelers like to argue? LOL
Seriously, the man has a good question, and the answer really depends on the product and surface. That people are passionate about the topic is understandable.
In my own case, I use Tamiya primer in the jar to touch up metal parts and places where I'm not sure the surface is fully smooth. But adding a layer of paint lowers the detailing, that's just a fact of life. And primer TENDS to get tacky, especially if sprayed on with too much air or if thinned insufficiently.
My best advice? Experiment and find what works for you. Simple.
Because modelers like to argue? LOL
Seriously, the man has a good question, and the answer really depends on the product and surface. That people are passionate about the topic is understandable.
In my own case, I use Tamiya primer in the jar to touch up metal parts and places where I'm not sure the surface is fully smooth. But adding a layer of paint lowers the detailing, that's just a fact of life. And primer TENDS to get tacky, especially if sprayed on with too much air or if thinned insufficiently.
My best advice? Experiment and find what works for you. Simple.
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:10 AM UTC
So what is your response to folks who do NOT use primer, but produce high quality models?
Exceptions prove the rule. If I state that generally players do not score 100 points in a basketball game, I am correct. And yet Wilt Chamberlain did it. Once. An imperfect analogy, as I am not sure all of my detractors rise to that level of excellence. But you get the point.
It depends on what paint is used (enamels make it far easier), and whether one uses pe. Pretty much everyone has confirmed that metal parts require it. And in my mind at least some photoetch is required for almost any project. Even those who denounce pe still use photoetch grills, chains, etc.
Here's another consideration. Using primer allows one to see any mistake or blemishes BEFORE painting. So, by not using them, detractors are running the risk that there are blemishes and mistakes they did not see. To me the proposition is silly. It is like saying that Russian Roulette is not a bad idea because there are plenty of examples of people doing it and coming out unscathed.
It is really easy to do, and the Tamiya fine primer costs about10 bucks and can last three or four kits. Why anyone would not prime is UNFATHOMABLE to me. And how it can be seriously be debated, often with snarky insolence, is simply befuddling.
Exceptions prove the rule. If I state that generally players do not score 100 points in a basketball game, I am correct. And yet Wilt Chamberlain did it. Once. An imperfect analogy, as I am not sure all of my detractors rise to that level of excellence. But you get the point.
It depends on what paint is used (enamels make it far easier), and whether one uses pe. Pretty much everyone has confirmed that metal parts require it. And in my mind at least some photoetch is required for almost any project. Even those who denounce pe still use photoetch grills, chains, etc.
Here's another consideration. Using primer allows one to see any mistake or blemishes BEFORE painting. So, by not using them, detractors are running the risk that there are blemishes and mistakes they did not see. To me the proposition is silly. It is like saying that Russian Roulette is not a bad idea because there are plenty of examples of people doing it and coming out unscathed.
It is really easy to do, and the Tamiya fine primer costs about10 bucks and can last three or four kits. Why anyone would not prime is UNFATHOMABLE to me. And how it can be seriously be debated, often with snarky insolence, is simply befuddling.
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefJoined: May 14, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:12 AM UTC
I have only recently started using primer on models and by recently I mean since I started using metal barrels. My problem now is that since my eyes have degraded with age I find the primer a great way to make imperfections stand out such as areas that need filling or sanding and I can then correct that issue before adding all the paintwork and then finding the problem.
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
Armorama: 172 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I like to prime, so the hell what? Its my models I'm painting. If you like to great. If you don't why should I care, its your model not mine!
I care because ostensibly the purpose of forums like these is to inform and instruct persons of all skill ranges. Those encouraging newbies not to use primer are professing what should be tantamount to heresy. Profligating bad ideas helps no one, especially persons starting out.
McKeever
Joined: October 14, 2012
KitMaker: 246 posts
Armorama: 172 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 04:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have only recently started using primer on models and by recently I mean since I started using metal barrels. My problem now is that since my eyes have degraded with age I find the primer a great way to make imperfections stand out such as areas that need filling or sanding and I can then correct that issue before adding all the paintwork and then finding the problem.
Not to mention paint will adhere much better to those metal barrels and other parts.
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