_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
Hosted by Darren Baker
M16 quad .50 halftrack build-continued
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - 09:13 PM UTC
a question came up from another member on my Dragon M16 build, and it's a big one..
The Dragon ammo mags, the big "tombstone" 200 rd. boxes, do not fit quite right in the rear fighting compartment corners. The top edges seem to peek up over the sides with the armor flaps folded down. I don't have any photos to tell if this is correct, and another builder here has been cutting them at the bottoms..which isn't good, the Dragon mags are correct for size..anyone got a pic of an M16 AA 'track showing if the stowed mags are totally concealed or visible?
Kencelot
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - 09:37 PM UTC
Does this image help?

WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 - 09:35 AM UTC
Thanks, but no...I have that plus about a hundred others..what I am getting the impression of, is that those 4 ammo chests were very rarely stowed in the rear corners of the vehicle body..I haven't seen them there in a pic yet. I would guess they could be very difficult to access easily if needed in action. I also see a lot of pics of the crews simply reloading the set of mags hanging on the gun mounts, just swinging the tops open and laying in new live belts, instead of dismounting / mounting those 80 lb. mags. more research is needed!
ericadeane
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 - 10:59 AM UTC
I clearly have pics of those four rear corner mounted ammo cans below the lip of the folding armor -- without a doubt. I think we need to nail down the actual height of the ammo cans. If DML's are correct, then we have to assume that the floor might be too high
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 08:38 PM UTC
I think this might be the case...The ammo cans Dragon provides are approximately the correct size..without one right on my table I can't nail it down closer than within 1/2 inch. They are between 21" and 22" high. I do know the "rims" of the front and back of the plastic mags are a bit thick and do need to be sanded a bit but this doesn't account for this huge problem. I got the pics and thanks, this shows just how much trouble we are in!
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Monday, May 20, 2013 - 08:08 PM UTC
ok...we're in trouble.
The tombstone mags in the kit are the correct height. Verified by owners of said mags. Which MEANS..the body of the halftrack is short by a scale inch or two. 1/35 ammo mag measures .615 and space it's supposed to fit in? .590
Oh my....major mods.
Glad I didn't get too far into the rear compartment build!
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 06:01 AM UTC
A quad turret wasn't enough for them. Look at the field mod for a fifth 50 cal. added on. Well you might just need to fire in the other direction!

I am guessing this is in the Pacific Theater judging by the water catcher you see behind them. So the Quad is for air defense and the single 50 is for beach defense from ground troops.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

a question came up from another member on my Dragon M16 build, and it's a big one..
The Dragon ammo mags, the big "tombstone" 200 rd. boxes, do not fit quite right in the rear fighting compartment corners. The top edges seem to peek up over the sides with the armor flaps folded down. I don't have any photos to tell if this is correct, and another builder here has been cutting them at the bottoms..which isn't good, the Dragon mags are correct for size..anyone got a pic of an M16 AA 'track showing if the stowed mags are totally concealed or visible?

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 07:03 AM UTC
Hi, Gary! My photo sources show same as yours, in respect to the GIs loading the ammo boxes, as opposed to switching the 80-lb. boxes for re-loads... Lot's faster and easier- GIs were very resourceful in "streamlining" their jobs...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 07:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

a question came up from another member on my Dragon M16 build, and it's a big one..
The Dragon ammo mags, the big "tombstone" 200 rd. boxes, do not fit quite right in the rear fighting compartment corners. The top edges seem to peek up over the sides with the armor flaps folded down. I don't have any photos to tell if this is correct, and another builder here has been cutting them at the bottoms..which isn't good, the Dragon mags are correct for size..anyone got a pic of an M16 AA 'track showing if the stowed mags are totally concealed or visible?

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 07:20 AM UTC
PS- If you have a copy of the MOTOR BOOKS "AMERICAN TANKS OF WORLD WAR II by Thomas Berndt, check the photos of the M16s, pp 33-37. I don't see any of the ammo boxes peeking out over the folded-down side shields- hope this helps...
jon_a_its
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

ok...we're in trouble.
The tombstone mags in the kit are the correct height. Verified by owners of said mags. Which MEANS..the body of the halftrack is short by a scale inch or two. 1/35 ammo mag measures .615 and space it's supposed to fit in? .590
Oh my....major mods.
Glad I didn't get too far into the rear compartment build!



:-X

Or just shave off 0.025 of the bottom of the cans
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 01:26 AM UTC
A couple of builders have done that, shaving down the mags to fit under the rim of the walls..but I'm not so sure I want to go this way. Now I HAVE to go over to the museum at Lesany, CZ...how much MORE of this will I find? Is the entire vehicle off scale?

One surefire solution I'm considering: Don't bother stowing the mags in the rear. Since this M16 is for a diorama, and to be portrayed in a heated exchange of fire, I'm considering having those 4 mags dismounted, possibly on standby with the .50 belt hanging out a bit, or even off the vehicle with other troops reloading them..
That 5th .50 M2 mount is in my build BTW..many M16 AA tracks saw more action delivering ground fire, as they were spectacular in defending tanks from those pesky Germans with panzerfaust and panzershrek, and in assaulting hard positions like dug in MGs and anti tank guns and gun bunkers. In the chaos of battle, an extra .50 to fire independantly at unexpected targets would be an asset.
165thspc
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 01:34 AM UTC
Don't get me wrong, I very much like the fifth 50. I tend to like all field mods in general. I will be adding this detail to any US halftracks I may do in the future!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 01:58 AM UTC
Hi, All! I agree with ... That's the simplest solution to the problem at hand. I came up with the same solution myself, but beat me to it, so ALL CREDIT for that solution goes to him!!! Why stick your head in a beehive by screwing around with a rear body if you don't need to? The simple shaving of the bottoms of the ammo boxes is exactly what I'm going to do when I finally get around to building my M16... On my 3 workbenches at present: A plastic and brass Kit-bash/Scratch-build of an HO scale New York, Ontario & Western Rwy W-2 Class 2-8-0 Camelback Freight-type Steam Locomotive. A 1/48 TAMIYA P-51D Mustang of the 4th Fighter Group in "flying mode", decorated in overall Silver Dope with the late 1944/45-style Red Nose treatment. I used an EDUARD "ZOOM" Pre-Painted PE set for the cockpit, and I modified and painted an old MONOGRAM P-51D Pilot to fly the thing... I have a nearly completed M4A1 75mm (Dry) VVSS with T48 Tracks and Hedgerow Device, as seen in France, late June/early July, 1944. I used the excellent FORMATIONS' Late Re-man reinforced Hull and Low Bustle Turret Conversions. The model is in non-combat mode, as if driving through a liberated French town, with 3 crew- Commander, Driver and Assistant Driver. Also in process is my TAMIYA "Dragon Wagon" Tank Transport Vehicle, with a TASCA "Jumbo" riding the Trailer. Another project is my 1/24 Kit-bash/Scratch-build 1950's East Coast-style 1930 Ford Model A Coupe, shot in a deep Royal Metallic Purple,(we have channeled Coupe bodies on the East Coast; West Coast Coupe bodies are chopped) with a Red fully wired, belted and plumbed Ford V-8 Flat Head, 2 Stromberg carburetors, 3-inch drop on the front axle, with a 4-inch kick-up on the sectioned '32 Ford Frame, "Full" MOON Wheel covers with "skinny" 1950's-style Wide Whitewall "Big & Little" Bias-Ply Tires, Black & White custom "Diamond Button Tuft" interior. There's lot's of Resin and PE details in this build... I've got a smattering of 1/35 GIs in-process as well; Doggies, Tankers, and Maintenance Men... I used to build and sell on a special-order basis- now I build strictly for my own pleasure... I see some BEAUTIFUL builds on this site; you guys keep up the GREAT work...
Major_Steuben
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 02:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW..many M16 AA tracks saw more action delivering ground fire, as they were spectacular in defending tanks from those pesky Germans with panzerfaust and panzershrek, and in assaulting hard positions like dug in MGs and anti tank guns and gun bunkers.



I always thought a great dio would be an M-16 backing towards a fortified house with supporting infantry during Patton's swing north during the Ardennes offensive . THe idea came from a line in the epic Patton movie something like "cannibalize your AA units, what we need now is rifleman...." those units would have pretty good "heavy weapons squads, right.

also what about the GMC with the 40mm bofors (an early duster, if you will)

now for a title, what's the German word for nutcracker?????
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 02:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

BTW..many M16 AA tracks saw more action delivering ground fire, as they were spectacular in defending tanks from those pesky Germans with panzerfaust and panzershrek, and in assaulting hard positions like dug in MGs and anti tank guns and gun bunkers.



I always thought a great dio would be an M-16 backing towards a fortified house with supporting infantry during Patton's swing north during the Ardennes offensive . THe idea came from a line in the epic Patton movie something like "cannibalize your AA units, what we need now is rifleman...." those units would have pretty good "heavy weapons squads, right.

also what about the GMC with the 40mm bofors (an early duster, if you will)

now for a title, what's the German word for nutcracker?????



The GMC with the Bofors was only used by the French, and didn't have any armor, so not a great candidate against ground targets unless there's no other option.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 03:20 AM UTC
The German word for "nutcracker" is: "nussknacker"- pronounced "noos-knocker"; In the German language, the "k" is pronounced, not silent as in English; the "nuss" has a shortened "oo" sound, not as long as the "oo" in the English word "loose"... I'm 1st generation American; My sister and I grew up with several languages spoken in the house: English, German, and Ukrainian. Sometimes German, Polish or Russian was spoken, depending on who was paying a visit... There were even times when ALL of those languages were being spoken all at once. Growing up in Brooklyn, New York, I had Italian and Yiddish-speaking Jewish buddies, and a few Puerto Rican friends as well, so I picked up mostly the gutter variety of those languages, plus I took French in High School, of which I've forgotten much of because of dis-use... In Junior High, I studied "High" German; we spoke a "Low" Southern German dialect at home- My Mom came from Schwennigen, a suburb of Augsburg. That's how I came to understand all of those German Sd.Kfz's, etc... My Dad was Ukrainian, so that's how I learned Ukrainian, plus some Russian and Polish and a little bit of Czech... Once in a great while, if I get excited or enthusiastic, a little bit of a "Brooklynese" accent (specifically Greenpoint/Williamsburg) will sneak into my English. Oh yes, different neighborhoods in New York City will have slightly different accents in their speech patterns...
Major_Steuben
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Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 04:36 AM UTC
So I guess the M16 option would be the most plausible then

I also have other dios iin mind...

The titles are
"Pocket change" (in 1/16th)

"Frankenstein 1, 2 & 3"

"Drivers Meeting"

"rooster" (1/16th)

"baker platoon" in 1/35 featuring "Rooster"

like Tom Petty said "I have a lot of songs in my head, I just need to get them out"
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2013 - 10:49 PM UTC
I'm convinced I'm leaving those 4 tombstone mags dismounted. Something in my deeply OCD nature just bristles at the idea of cutting down a part which is on-scale to accomodate an error in scale on the entire vehicle. Makes me CRAZY. So that's my answer and I'm sticking to it. Maybe I'll have them at ready with the belts hanging out a bit..

Another huge error found in the course of this is the radio..not the big one, the smaller radio with the separate power supply unit underneath. OMG, how much can they get WRONG on this kit? Went through huge acrobatics to get an acceptable radio unit together for this, I guess in the next episode of the build feature I'll get into that issue..

M16's and the other AA 'tracks serving in Europe did indeed see more action against ground targets, since air superiority went to the Allies fairly quick and the AA units, though still necessary, didn't have a target rich environment. They did outstanding service escorting tank units to keep German infantry away with those nasty anti tank weapons, and assaulting hardened defenses supporting infantry. so effective was this weapon, it was adopted as SOP and quad .50 turrets mounted on halftracks and 2.5 and 5 ton trucks served through Korea and Viet Nam.

The .50 cal is the most significant ground combat and aerial weapon of the past 100 years.
Cobrahistorian
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Posted: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 09:25 AM UTC
Gary,

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. I've been busy with a number of things. I'll see about getting you pics of our M16 when we take it out tomorrow.

Jon

Drop me an email at [email protected] and we'll talk further.
WARCLOUD
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Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
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Posted: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 09:46 AM UTC
Sounds like a little misunderstanding..I don't mean the mounted tombstones hanging off the turret, of course those hang out over the sides...I mean the 4 stowed extra mags strapped in the corners of the rear compartment, they need to fit below the rim of the armor wall and on the model they don't. Got tons of pics now from research showing them neatly stowed there below the rim. I could stil use a correct measurement of the rear compartment, floor to rim of armor w. flaps down and flaps up. That would help!
Cobrahistorian
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Posted: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 01:11 PM UTC
Gotcha, yeah, I realized that after I'd posted. They're definitely supposed to be below the armor edge. I'll grab some measurements in the morning. IIRC, we'd determined that the cans themselves are accurate, so it's a tub-depth issue.
 _GOTOTOP