I've run into an issue spraying Testors Dullcote that is really perplexing. I guess this could be a follow-up to a post I made last year: Acrylic Flat Clear Woes
Now I'm having lacquer-based flat clear woes. The problem is this: I sprayed a 50/50 mix of Testors Dullcote (1160 in the bottle) and lacquer thinner on a 1/35 T-34/85m that had weathering and washes applied over a coat of Future.
The weathering was essentially oil washes, and various grime and rust streaks made using AK Interactive products (Dark Streaking Grime and Rust Streaks). It was spot on perfect for how what I wanted it to look. Last night I sprayed the Dullcote on the model and…POOF…all that work for the subtle weathering I had done was gone, vanished. You can still see a few of the heavier rust streaks, but for the most part all the shadows made by the washes and the grime streaking is gone. My color modulation is still evident as is the chipping and scratched I had done, but the more subtle weathering is gone, daddy gone. Other than my weathering effects disappearing, I'm OK with the way the finish looks, so it's not really a question of fogging or hazing like I had using acrylics.
I airbrush the aforementioned Dullcote mixture at 12-15psi to keep it from drying between the tip and model, and spray a light coating a few centimeters from the surface…light enough so it doesn't pool up and attach the undercoat of Future, but not so far away that it dries before it hits the surface and goes on dry and dusty. It's generally has a slightly wet sheen for a few seconds and goes flat, which I would think is what I want so the Future doesn't get eaten through
I tried to recover the lost streaks by spraying a light misting of pure, clean lacquer thinner over everything. That restored a very small level of the streaks but not nearly enough. Plus, it gave the model a slight semi-gloss sheen which I don't want.
Having a build go perfectly from the start only to be ruined at the final stage of applying the final flat coat is a new definition of frustration.
My first thought is that I need to "overweather" initially to compensate for the Dullcote, but that seems like a real gamble with uncontrollable results. Looking at photos of all the models on Armorama, it's obvious no one is really working that way.
So, I guess my question is this: is 50/50 the wrong mixture ratio for airbrushing Dullcote? Should I be using something more like 70% thinner, 30% Dullcote? I've been using Dullcote on aircraft using the 50/50 mixture and have been happy with those results, but then I don't generally weather those model the same way I did this tank.
By the same token, is there another spraying method I should use? Maybe spray so the Dullcote goes on more wet? If it goes on too dry, it tends to look too dusty and it not what I'd want.
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Airbrushing Dullcote hides weathering
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 02:43 AM UTC
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 04:31 AM UTC
Hi,Bill! I like Testors Dullcote- it's a great product. I like to use the Dullcote in the SPRAY CANS, simply because Lacquer Thinner, when mixed with bottled Dullcote is too "HOT" for most weathering finishes. Using aerosol Dullcote may seem like a "rude and crude" technique, but it works great for me. The key is keeping the Dullcote application light. Lighter colored weathering powders tend to disappear with applications of clear lacquers. I can also recommend that you try applying the various sealers made by the manufacturers of weathering products, (MIG, etc.) and once the sealer has dried for at least 48 hours, THEN applying either Dullcote or Acrylic Clear Flats, which are a safer way to seal and "flatten" your finish. Be careful of spraying your Dullcote mix on too heavilly- Applying it too "wet" will craze and result in an unsightly "Crackling" effect on your paint finish. DON'T add more Lacquer Thinner to your mix- As I said before, it's too "hot" and will ruin your paint job. The "milky" effect of your Dullcote is due more to the HUMIDITY in your painting area, rather than your paint-to-thinner or clear flat-to-thinner mix-ratios... If you have a water-trap in your spraying system, check it to see if you have any moisture in it. If you don't have a water trap in your paint-spraying set-up, get one. It'll save you a lot of headaches down the road... I learned these various tricks after being in the automobile business for over 25 years- what you do on a 1:1 scale real car applies just as well to 1/35 or 1/48 scale, only more so... As to "over-weathering" or with any weathering technique, "Less is More"... I've also used TAMIYA Matte Clear and Semi Matte Sprays, with EXCELLENT results. I don't like to "over-weather", because I feel that that technique tends to hide all those great details that I worked so hard to create in the first place. Great reference material is ESSENTIAL in building ANY model... Hope that this helps you, even if it's in just a very small way... Best of luck, Dennis
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 05:31 AM UTC
Hi, Bil!!! PS- If you've been using the4 oil-based AK INTERACTIVE products, check to see if they make a SEALER. Use that sealer and let it dry thoroughly before using your Dullcote, remembering not to over-do your mix of lacquer-thinner to clear flat. As to your use of FUTURE, I suggest that you use that stuff ONLY WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO PLACE YOUR DECALS, NOT AS AN OVERALL COATING. FUTURE is a clear ACRYLIC, originally meant to be used on Housewives' Floors, and not really on models. Lacquer thinner will wreak havoc when applied over FUTURE, especially if it hasn't dried thoroughly. However, FUTURE IS GREAT if you're going to use it as a clear, glossy coating on aircraft models, or as a clear base before applying decals on other subjects... It's absolutely fantastic for creating clarity on aircraft canopies, etc... Remember also, that oil-based products, such as the ones that come in tubes, WILL interact with lacquer thinners, but in a negative fashion. The lacquer thinner will "lift" the oil base to the surface of the application, creating the semi-glossy effect that you encountered. I keep my use of lacquer thinners to an absolute minimum, such as cleaning my airbrushes... Winsor-Newton also makes/made (I don't even know if it's still available) this stuff called "Clear Matte Varnish" that is applied to oil paintings as a sealer. I bought several bottles of it ages ago. I have used it very successfully by using an eye-dropper and transferring a drop or two right into my paint mix already contained in my airbrush color cups and mixing it thoroughly before I spray. It makes the paint finish smoother and as tough as nails, without any adverse effects. I would caution against adding this stuff directly to paint in the bottles, because I don't know how that will affect the paint if stored. But if you use it in your spray-mix right away, it's great stuff... Also, have you tried the various MICRO-SCALE Clear Flats and Glosses? They may help you with your problems as well... Good Luck! -Dennis
Ranchhand
Joined: September 04, 2010
KitMaker: 289 posts
Armorama: 257 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:01 AM UTC
I have heard to never dullcoat over pigments before... that it nukes them. I have not heard it covering streaking/etc.
may i ask why you where applying dullcoat in the first place? I find that after weathering nothing is shiny anyway, and if you do have shiny paint parts to dull coat it first (before weathering)
may i ask why you where applying dullcoat in the first place? I find that after weathering nothing is shiny anyway, and if you do have shiny paint parts to dull coat it first (before weathering)
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have heard to never dullcoat over pigments before... that it nukes them. I have not heard it covering streaking/etc.
may i ask why you where applying dullcoat in the first place? I find that after weathering nothing is shiny anyway, and if you do have shiny paint parts to dull coat it first (before weathering)
Well, since washes and streaking are best applied to a glossy surface so they flow properly, I spray a gloss coat after applying decals, then do the weathering. I don't weather it enough to make the entire model dull (unless maybe I was doing a rusted out hulk), hence the need for a flat coat. Streaking and washes simply do not work on a flat coated surface, and I really don't want a tank to be as shiny as the airliner model sitting next to it. :-)
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
Armorama: 1,814 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:20 AM UTC
A lot of the effects you see with streaking and that sort of thing are because they have a different sheen than the base coats. So when you equalize that and make everything flat, it will kill some of the effect.
Next time, just go heavier with the weathering, with the expectation that the flat will kill it.
If it's still too heavy after the flat, mix up a very thinned mix of your base color and clear flat and spray that over to tone down everything.
Next time, just go heavier with the weathering, with the expectation that the flat will kill it.
If it's still too heavy after the flat, mix up a very thinned mix of your base color and clear flat and spray that over to tone down everything.
rinaldi119
Joined: September 22, 2004
KitMaker: 375 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:28 AM UTC
Hi Bill -
The simple short reply and answer is to stop using varnishes, especially over any previous work. My recommendation is to only use a varnish when paint protection is more important in the beginning, and over decals for that process.
Otherwise, stop. Typically any varnish will alter the underlying weathering effects, it doesn't matter the brand or application method, and as you painfully found out -- will more than likely kill them altogether.
Unless you intend to handle the model in some intense way that requires a sealer of some sort, simply skip them and put the model in the case when you are done. I've not seen a need to seal a model and some of mine look as they did from years ago without anything on top, the products we use today are essentially inert once dry.
Best,
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
The simple short reply and answer is to stop using varnishes, especially over any previous work. My recommendation is to only use a varnish when paint protection is more important in the beginning, and over decals for that process.
Otherwise, stop. Typically any varnish will alter the underlying weathering effects, it doesn't matter the brand or application method, and as you painfully found out -- will more than likely kill them altogether.
Unless you intend to handle the model in some intense way that requires a sealer of some sort, simply skip them and put the model in the case when you are done. I've not seen a need to seal a model and some of mine look as they did from years ago without anything on top, the products we use today are essentially inert once dry.
Best,
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:30 AM UTC
Thanks, Jesse. That's the approach I was thinking, but it just seems like such an uncontrolled and imprecise way to get the results a modeler would want. It makes total sense though, just sort of flies in the face from the beautiful work I see here and at contests.
Am thinking I might just apply a light gloss coat back to it and beef up the weathering keeping this in mind, then hitting the flat coat back afterwards.
This is my first armor model in probably 20 years, so I'm looking at it as an experiment anyway. The last time I did a tank, the standard procedure was to give it a dark wash, then drybrush the heck out of it. Like the "modern" method much better, I just have to get the process down.
Am thinking I might just apply a light gloss coat back to it and beef up the weathering keeping this in mind, then hitting the flat coat back afterwards.
This is my first armor model in probably 20 years, so I'm looking at it as an experiment anyway. The last time I did a tank, the standard procedure was to give it a dark wash, then drybrush the heck out of it. Like the "modern" method much better, I just have to get the process down.
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 06:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Bill -
The simple short reply and answer is to stop using varnishes, especially over any previous work. My recommendation is to only use a varnish when paint protection is more important in the beginning, and over decals for that process.
Hi Mike-
Thanks for the response. It makes some sense, but forgive me if my light bulb seems a bit dim today because maybe I'm missing something. Are your suggesting to NOT use a final flat coat?
If washes and such work best on a glossy surface, and I want the finished piece to have a flat, non-shiny surface, would I not then need the final flat coat? Guess I don't see how you get from a gloss surface for the washes and weathering to an overall flat finish without a final flat coat. It would be great of washes and such worked on a flat surface, then I could do all that afterwards. But it just doesn't...the surface is too rough for anything to flow properly and its not pretty.
What part of the puzzle is eluding me?
rinaldi119
Joined: September 22, 2004
KitMaker: 375 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHi Bill -
The simple short reply and answer is to stop using varnishes, especially over any previous work. My recommendation is to only use a varnish when paint protection is more important in the beginning, and over decals for that process.
Hi Mike-
Thanks for the response. It makes some sense, but forgive me if my light bulb seems a bit dim today because maybe I'm missing something. Are your suggesting to NOT use a final flat coat?
If washes and such work best on a glossy surface, and I want the finished piece to have a flat, non-shiny surface, would I not then need the final flat coat? Guess I don't see how you get from a gloss surface for the washes and weathering to an overall flat finish without a final flat coat. It would be great of washes and such worked on a flat surface, then I could do all that afterwards. But it just doesn't...the surface is too rough for anything to flow properly and its not pretty.
What part of the puzzle is eluding me?
No varnishes at all Bill, stop the whole "make it glossy" first process. It is so much harder to go flat, then it is to make a matte surface glossy. For armor that you prefer to end up matte, start with matte paints.
First off, there is a lot of misinformation in that washes MUST be applied to a glossy surface for them to work best. Simply not true, nor is the results any better. You can work on any surface finish you want in essence -- I start with matte, some guys prefer satin, but the notion that it MUST be glossy is an old idea that just needs to go away, in the most polite sense of course.
But then again it depends on your wash, how you apply it and what process is used. I've long ago binned the process of brushing the wash over the entire surface...I now use a pinwash. It's applied very specifically and with a fine tip brush, the results are gained via superior control and precision, and you don't wreck the painted surface sheen you are trying to capture. If you have a tidemark appear, keep a clean brush handy and simply blend it away.
If you are coming back to the fold after 20 years, indeed a lot has changed, and there are newer (and often times better) ways to go about the weathering processes.
To reinforce the thought, there is no "reason" to flat after the model is weathered. You may need to practice and relearn some things, but If you start with a matte paint base coat, then work the model with washes, oils, and pigments, etc. it will turn out fine and then you simply move on to the next project.
Best.
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
rinaldi119
Joined: September 22, 2004
KitMaker: 375 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It would be great of washes and such worked on a flat surface, then I could do all that afterwards. But it just doesn't...the surface is too rough for anything to flow properly and its not pretty.
What part of the puzzle is eluding me?
Honestly, when I read this I think your airbrushing is at fault. It is possible to paint matte and not have an overly rough or textured surface.
It is a whole other conversation, but the quality of the initial paintjob is very critical to success. If you are getting rough textures, than the culprit is likely the airbrushing stage.
Typically rough texture occurs when the paint dries before, or just as it hits the surface. A few tips to help combat the problem, thin the paint a little more, up the pressure a few psi ( say 15 to 18 psi, for example), and move closer to the model a hair (should be spraying around 3-4" away at the most, this way the paint is hitting the model wet (not soaking), but wet, and then as it dries it should level to a smooth finish.
Yes, under a microscope matte paints have a texture vs. gloss, but that's a minor point and achieving a smooth matte finish is the starting point to achieve success with the rest...
Best,
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:35 AM UTC
Thanks, Mike. I think I'm on the verge of that elusive facepalm.
All that makes sense, except:
1. What do you suggest when applying decals? Totally get where you're coming from with the no-gloss approach, but how do you handle decals on your models in that case?
2. Have previously tried to do weathering over the flat paint I spray with (Tamiya acrylic)...it's been a disaster, which prompted me to go the gloss route. Pin washes (oil or enamel) as you describe them do not flow at all, they just sort of bloom and bleed and look horrid. With the gloss surface I get them exactly where I want them and they stay put. Plus I can hit them with a but of thinner on a fine brush. to massage and tweak them if needed. The streaking effects I like are even worse. There's no way to feather and blend on the flat surface..,again, the enamel just bleeds and sticks into the rough surface (compared to a smooth surface of gloss). What do yo do to work around this sort of thing?
All that makes sense, except:
1. What do you suggest when applying decals? Totally get where you're coming from with the no-gloss approach, but how do you handle decals on your models in that case?
2. Have previously tried to do weathering over the flat paint I spray with (Tamiya acrylic)...it's been a disaster, which prompted me to go the gloss route. Pin washes (oil or enamel) as you describe them do not flow at all, they just sort of bloom and bleed and look horrid. With the gloss surface I get them exactly where I want them and they stay put. Plus I can hit them with a but of thinner on a fine brush. to massage and tweak them if needed. The streaking effects I like are even worse. There's no way to feather and blend on the flat surface..,again, the enamel just bleeds and sticks into the rough surface (compared to a smooth surface of gloss). What do yo do to work around this sort of thing?
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:40 AM UTC
If you're back to weathering, a tremendous amount has changed, both in materials but also in techniques. Michael is waaaaay too polite to say it, so I will. I would really recommend that you buy one of Michael's books. He goes through it in great detail and really covers as well as you're going to find out there on how to do what and what to use. I've been using Glosscote followed by Dullcote for years and struggling with a lot of the current weathering techniques. Once I dumped them I've found making these more realistic techniques work is just so much easier.
Matt
Matt
rinaldi119
Joined: September 22, 2004
KitMaker: 375 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 08:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks, Mike. I think I'm on the verge of that elusive facepalm.
All that makes sense, except:
1. What do you suggest when applying decals? Totally get where you're coming from with the no-gloss approach, but how do you handle decals on your models in that case?
Lol, I avoid them like the plague...seriously. If you don't use spray masks and paint the markings, (and for armor this relatively easy given the low number usually required), spot varnish gloss, apply said decal to avoid silvering, set and so on, then spot flat varnish on top. In other words get it all done before you start any weathering...which starts you with the matte finish you want to work with.
Quoted Text
2. Have previously tried to do weathering over the flat paint I spray with (Tamiya acrylic)...it's been a disaster, which prompted me to go the gloss route. Pin washes (oil or enamel) as you describe them do not flow at all, they just sort of bloom and bleed and look horrid. With the gloss surface I get them exactly where I want them and they stay put. Plus I can hit them with a but of thinner on a fine brush. to massage and tweak them if needed. The streaking effects I like are even worse. There's no way to feather and blend on the flat surface..,again, the enamel just bleeds and sticks into the rough surface (compared to a smooth surface of gloss). What do yo do to work around this sort of thing?
Tamiya's will lay down as smooth as silk, trust me. I've had great success thinning them with their own Lacquer Thinner, and many guys swear by a host of thinners from Iso Alcohol to X-20A thinner as well. My guess is you are not thinning it enough, start with at least a 50-50 mixture, and I prefer 60-40 for base colors myself and build up the color in thin coats. You can see it go down wet, and then dry. Most acrylics I apply in roughly the same ratios, so the advice is applicable to Vallejo, Lifecolor, etc.
For the pinwash, when I'm applying it, the liquid will flow approx. 1/2" in either direction, then you simply work your way around slowly, keeping it all under control. Clean up any tidemarks as you go, so they don't sit too long. Usually you can use them to start some subtle streaks too in opportunistic ways. I use a #2 Round fine tip brush as my main applicator tool. It holds enough wash to do a small area, but not too much to flood the detail and overflow onto the model too much. Less is more, and repeat to increase your opacities for stronger effects.
Just take your time, yes you're right it doesn't flow as well across as it does for a gloss surface, but the benefits far outweigh this element to the process. The smoother the matte finish the easier this is to deal with, but once you "get the process" right, you'll have that fun "Ah Hah!!" moment and never look back.
My best advice, practice. Practice, and then practice again. I find treating these ideas like sports such as Golf or Baseball that are technique dependent helps get the thought across better. You will not get it right the first time, maybe not even by the tenth, but once you do, you will jump to a new plateau...promise.
Bill - please email me your address to [email protected], I'll send you a copy and see if it will do a more complete job of explaining the various ideas.
Best,
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 08:46 AM UTC
OK, Mike….I think the light bulb is on now. :-)
All that makes perfect sense, and yes, is far different than all I've learned and done over the years, but it all makes sense to me now. Truth be told, when I first hit that T-34 with the coat of Future it felt….very un-natural! When I did armor back in the day I never used gloss and did the spot varnish for decals as you described. Will have to revisit that on my next project.
I have been spraying my Tamiya with a 50/50 mix of paint and 91% ISO. I generally don't have any issues with roughness, but then I've only tested putting the washes right on the paint once or twice. I do think the slightly thinner mix you described will, so I'll try that and do some testing.
When I do aircraft (which is what I mostly build), I do a gloss coat for decals and to run a thin wash through panel lines, maybe a little streaking on the wings for grime, but not much more weathering than that. The flat coat never impacts the weathering the way it did on the tank. It just goes to show that the techniques I use for doing aircraft don't totally cross over to armor. Armor is a totally different game these days apparently and I do have some re-education to go through.
I've got plenty of other armor in the stash to practice with, so no worries there. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your methods to me. I'll shoot you an email when I get home later tonight…and again, many tanks…er, I mean thanks.
All that makes perfect sense, and yes, is far different than all I've learned and done over the years, but it all makes sense to me now. Truth be told, when I first hit that T-34 with the coat of Future it felt….very un-natural! When I did armor back in the day I never used gloss and did the spot varnish for decals as you described. Will have to revisit that on my next project.
I have been spraying my Tamiya with a 50/50 mix of paint and 91% ISO. I generally don't have any issues with roughness, but then I've only tested putting the washes right on the paint once or twice. I do think the slightly thinner mix you described will, so I'll try that and do some testing.
When I do aircraft (which is what I mostly build), I do a gloss coat for decals and to run a thin wash through panel lines, maybe a little streaking on the wings for grime, but not much more weathering than that. The flat coat never impacts the weathering the way it did on the tank. It just goes to show that the techniques I use for doing aircraft don't totally cross over to armor. Armor is a totally different game these days apparently and I do have some re-education to go through.
I've got plenty of other armor in the stash to practice with, so no worries there. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your methods to me. I'll shoot you an email when I get home later tonight…and again, many tanks…er, I mean thanks.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 10:32 AM UTC
Hi, All! I've dullcoted over pigments lots of times. The light tones tend to fade out or at worst, disappear altogether, while the darker tones (shadow effects, rust, exhaust and fuel stains) will not be affected by the dullcote at all- that's been my experience, anyway. I simulate dust, etc. with judicious use of my various airbrushes... You'd be surprised as to how well that works once you've developed your skills. Sure, it takes a lot of practice,m but in the end, it's worth the effort. Personally, I've been airbrushing for over 46 years, so I think that I just may know a thing or two... As I mentioned in my previous blurbs, I don't like over-stated weathering. GREAT, BIG GLOBS of mud everywhere just obliterates all the great PE, Resin Updates and much of today's EXCELLENT Slide-Molded parts... I NEVER use washes on glossy surfaces- that's the quickest way to a swearing-session... =:O Also, on my Armor and Softskins, I much prefer to use stenciled, painted-on markings over using decals, or rub-on transfers, such as ARCHER's, etc... If you're doing 1/48 aircraft, for instance, a nice coat of TAMIYA SEMI-MATTE or Clear Gloss works very well when applying decals. Just keep in mind that aircraft merely get dirty, while armor tends to get pretty filthy... I don't build my stuff for dios; rather, I depict most of my subject matter to represent fairly new equipment, with just light weathering, like it might have gone down a country road or through a field on a dry day... Just a personal preference, that's all...
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 11:18 AM UTC
Not to hijack your thread Bill but this question is for Mike.
Mike, my question is this, we have all learned in the past that a sealer of future will protect the paint underneath during washes that are oil based. I use Tamiya flat acrylic almost exclusively and have (albeit only 4 times now) used the future sealer over the top before I set about on the oil washes. Are you saying that this is NOT a necessary step to protect the acrylic flat base? Cheers.
Mike, my question is this, we have all learned in the past that a sealer of future will protect the paint underneath during washes that are oil based. I use Tamiya flat acrylic almost exclusively and have (albeit only 4 times now) used the future sealer over the top before I set about on the oil washes. Are you saying that this is NOT a necessary step to protect the acrylic flat base? Cheers.
rinaldi119
Joined: September 22, 2004
KitMaker: 375 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 01:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not to hijack your thread Bill but this question is for Mike.
Mike, my question is this, we have all learned in the past that a sealer of future will protect the paint underneath during washes that are oil based. I use Tamiya flat acrylic almost exclusively and have (albeit only 4 times now) used the future sealer over the top before I set about on the oil washes. Are you saying that this is NOT a necessary step to protect the acrylic flat base? Cheers.
That be exactly what I'm saying...with a cured acrylic base coat, there is no real requirement for an additional layer of protection on top. But, and this is just a caveat to cover my ass in case someone wants to intentionally disprove it, I don't cover my models in enamels/oil based products to any degree that they would eat through paint and harm it. The opposite in fact.
Plus, I also prime my model before painting too, so my base coat is ready to go as far as weathering is concerned. I'm at around 70 models done in this manner and never an issue, never even comes up unless it's in a conversation such as this one, I'd say half of my paintjobs are Tamiya based, and the other half are split between Vallejo and Lifecolor.
The varnish question is the one I'm asked the most often recently...guys are like "wait, what - no varnishes??" And I'm beginning to discern from talking to a lot of guys via email after reading the books that the amount of chemicals many of you guys are applying are far too much (in relation to how I go about things) and thus the "need" arose somewhere along the lines to overly protect the paint. I discussed this a bit during my recent AMPS seminar in Atlanta and I think it's a smart conversation to have.
There is no harm done by applying a varnish early on, of course, but just that there are different approaches if you want to try things a different way. Moving your processes over to more "control and precision" has many obvious benefits too, a main one being your products will last a lot longer. You become a lot more efficient with your chemical usage, and on top of being a more efficient modeler there are some solid cost benefits too. Covering the entire model in a wash is honestly a huge waste of product, let alone tinting the colors (one reason we all say the models darken up with weathering), and the results are not as crisp and precise as say using a pinwash.
From my perspective, the goals of being an "efficient" modeler vs. a "fast" modeler are major differences in the processes used, and the tools being used to apply them. I think I surprised a few guys, some well seasoned vets too at AMPS that have been publishing work for years with some of these topics.
And I will add, this is not me saying this is "the" way to do it. It's simply "another" way to do this. I'm now in a position of more accountability as a publisher and want to make sure the info that gets out there is something you guys can latch onto and have success with.
I'm very happy to engage in these sorts of conversations, I'll use the sports analogy again -- we are all out there hacking away with our clubs, I'm just trying to clear some things so you can have a more efficient and natural swing, and with some luck more success to achieve better results that you are specifically looking for. My goals are to provide the tools to achieve this, rather than dictate a "Rinaldi" way sort of effort. I'm a firm believer in using as little or as much of these ideas as required on your own projects. I think it is good path to help reduce some of our stashes.
Best,
Mike
www.facebook.com/RinaldiStudio
ProfessorP
Joined: February 20, 2007
KitMaker: 339 posts
Armorama: 325 posts
Posted: Friday, May 03, 2013 - 02:58 AM UTC
Hi Guys, interesting thread. My 2¢ on this is based on my lone experience using AK products over different finishes. I began applying the AK washes over a gloss coat and found that they would not stay where I put them even after setting up for 30 minutes to an hour. It was too easy to remove them with the white spirit as they apparently could not adhere properly to the glossy surface. I consulted AK Interactive's website which recommends using their products over a satin finish rather than over a glossy one. Once I allowed the first layer of washes to cure for a couple days, I went back and gave the whole model a coat of Vallejo Satin. Following that, all of the AK products worked like magic and I saw no need to flat coat the model at the end, given that the contrast between the satin finish of the paint and the dead-flat finish of the weathering products produces a very nice and arguably, realistic, finish.
So in a way I agree with Mike on this, that the old "washes over gloss" method may no longer hold true depending on what products you are using. I guess if you are going old school and using artist oil paints and turpentine for washes, that might work better over gloss but I don't have any experience with that. The AK stuff worked great for me once I followed the recommended procedure.
So in a way I agree with Mike on this, that the old "washes over gloss" method may no longer hold true depending on what products you are using. I guess if you are going old school and using artist oil paints and turpentine for washes, that might work better over gloss but I don't have any experience with that. The AK stuff worked great for me once I followed the recommended procedure.
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Friday, May 03, 2013 - 03:20 AM UTC
Hey Don-
Great post. I was just over on the AK Interactive forums, popped back here and saw your entry. General concensous on the AK site follows what you said: use their products over a satin finish, don't use a final flat coat. So, I'll give that process a shot on my next build, plus some of the ideas that have been discussed here thus far.
As for the AK stuff not adhiring well on a gloss surface, after thinkign about it I realize I had the same problem, but I thought I just wasn't letting things cure long enough. Never having used the producs before I just assumed that I needed to just let them sit for a couple of days to cure so that's what I did. Thanks for adding some more light to my slowly brightening light bulb.
Next time I try a new product like that, I suppose I need to follow my own advice: RTFM!
Great post. I was just over on the AK Interactive forums, popped back here and saw your entry. General concensous on the AK site follows what you said: use their products over a satin finish, don't use a final flat coat. So, I'll give that process a shot on my next build, plus some of the ideas that have been discussed here thus far.
As for the AK stuff not adhiring well on a gloss surface, after thinkign about it I realize I had the same problem, but I thought I just wasn't letting things cure long enough. Never having used the producs before I just assumed that I needed to just let them sit for a couple of days to cure so that's what I did. Thanks for adding some more light to my slowly brightening light bulb.
Next time I try a new product like that, I suppose I need to follow my own advice: RTFM!
Quasimofo
Joined: November 30, 2012
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 87 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 - 02:48 AM UTC
Hi all-
Just thought I would post a follow up on this topic, as I've finally been able to post some photos of my first two completed tank models which were built using the advice and wisdom that everyone has given me here.
I really want to thank everyone, and Mike Rinaldi in particular, for taking the time to explain methods and techniques. This discussion has really helped me re-evaluate the way I’ve been building all my models, not just the armor. In short, I’m very happy with how my first two efforts have turned out and I’m really motivated to keep learning and practicing on the shoulder high stack of kits I now have in my stash.
So, thank you all! I’m grateful for all the assistance I’ve been getting on Armorama!
On with the show:
First completed model: BT-5 Spanish Civil War
Second completed model: T-34/85m Nationale Volksarmee der DDR
Just thought I would post a follow up on this topic, as I've finally been able to post some photos of my first two completed tank models which were built using the advice and wisdom that everyone has given me here.
I really want to thank everyone, and Mike Rinaldi in particular, for taking the time to explain methods and techniques. This discussion has really helped me re-evaluate the way I’ve been building all my models, not just the armor. In short, I’m very happy with how my first two efforts have turned out and I’m really motivated to keep learning and practicing on the shoulder high stack of kits I now have in my stash.
So, thank you all! I’m grateful for all the assistance I’ve been getting on Armorama!
On with the show:
First completed model: BT-5 Spanish Civil War
Second completed model: T-34/85m Nationale Volksarmee der DDR
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