Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
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Diodramas,what are they ?
WARCLOUD
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Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 10:21 PM UTC
THIS is just mind altering....now tell me it's in 1/35 so I can just stroll down the hill and jump in the river..I can't begin to emulate the level of art this represents.
Concerning the dio of the Soviets capturing the SP gun in the fog..and the wooden sailing ship...I am just speechless. I dare not post any pics in this thread.
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 11:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If you want to make the world aware of the atrocities committed by the nazis, show them photos or contemp film material.
That to me is really a load of nonsense. Tell me exactly how showing the atrocities of any war (not just the nazi's) is different in pictures and footage as opposed to making a diorama of it? It is exactly the same only the medium differs.
With that Bill Horan piece shown earlier you have guys fighting for their lives and a fair amount of guys that suffered a heavy case of the deads and everybody says it is a work of art. The execution scene is actually very well made. The painting is very good, vehicles and groundwork is good but since it shows people being executed by the nazi's that is almost ignored.
You can't deny that in every war no matter where it is fought really bad stuff happens. We have seen it all on TV we have seen it all in the books. We still see it on TV and we still see it in the papers. But oh boy don't you get it into your head to recreate it in scale because then suddenly it is bad taste. Well mostly in the case of atrocities committed by the germans or the Japanese in WW2. In other cases it is mostly a work of art.
ninjrk
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 12:28 AM UTC
Not to sound too much like a cranky old man but I would propose that the problem is that we've cheapened the word "diorama" over the past 20-30 years or so in modeling circles. What used to be a very specific type of scene (one that tells a story and/or conveys a purposeful emotional response in the viewer) has become a catch-all term for any model placed on a scenic base with (usually) a figure or two. It takes a special type of artist to pull off the former while the vast majority of the rest of us are content with the latter. What winnows it down even more are the ones who can evoke the emotion but also have the ability to get all the technical fine details right.
Using the Citroen diorama as an example. It is a perfectly adequate scene but I don't think it measures up in either of those two areas. None of the figures are working together to tell a cohesive story, they are in their own little worlds. The debris are minimal compared to the destruction and the car really needs more damage around the impacts as well as shattered fragments from the large chunks. I'm not saying that to be an ass, I will freely admit that while I've made many pleasant scenes and scenic displays over the years I don't think I've ever pulled off a true diorama myself.
On a somewhat related note, I think that's where companies like masterbox are revolutionizing the field, their figures are cohesively linked dioramas in a box.
Using the Citroen diorama as an example. It is a perfectly adequate scene but I don't think it measures up in either of those two areas. None of the figures are working together to tell a cohesive story, they are in their own little worlds. The debris are minimal compared to the destruction and the car really needs more damage around the impacts as well as shattered fragments from the large chunks. I'm not saying that to be an ass, I will freely admit that while I've made many pleasant scenes and scenic displays over the years I don't think I've ever pulled off a true diorama myself.
On a somewhat related note, I think that's where companies like masterbox are revolutionizing the field, their figures are cohesively linked dioramas in a box.
dolly15
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 12:50 AM UTC
Marlowe
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 12:54 AM UTC
I have it now. The drama part of diodrama is a specific type of diorama that looks more to action or represntative of an action sequence. My interpretaton of a diorama is different then and often does represent what was described as "coincidental". This came about from studying photos and being struck by how often tanks, military vehicles are an imposition in the environement, a discordant fit, rather than something which seems to be an organic part.
Another area where I see the disagreement is that in mine the figures are independent of each other, whereas in the others all the figures are parts of a whole relating to the action. As for the Citroen dio, I did have my reasons for why everything is the way it is but the responses here show that it did not come through. Since the Citroen has already been damaged, it would make a good piece for a scene depicting it being crushed by a KV-1.
Another area where I see the disagreement is that in mine the figures are independent of each other, whereas in the others all the figures are parts of a whole relating to the action. As for the Citroen dio, I did have my reasons for why everything is the way it is but the responses here show that it did not come through. Since the Citroen has already been damaged, it would make a good piece for a scene depicting it being crushed by a KV-1.
jrutman
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 01:41 AM UTC
Yes,this is Bill Horans' vignette of the death of Union General McPherson during the battles around Atlanta.
Saw it in person and it's awesome.
J
1stjaeger
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 03:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextIf you want to make the world aware of the atrocities committed by the nazis, show them photos or contemp film material.
That to me is really a load of nonsense. Tell me exactly how showing the atrocities of any war (not just the nazi's) is different in pictures and footage as opposed to making a diorama of it? It is exactly the same only the medium differs.
With that Bill Horan piece shown earlier you have guys fighting for their lives and a fair amount of guys that suffered a heavy case of the deads and everybody says it is a work of art. The execution scene is actually very well made. The painting is very good, vehicles and groundwork is good but since it shows people being executed by the nazi's that is almost ignored.
You can't deny that in every war no matter where it is fought really bad stuff happens. We have seen it all on TV we have seen it all in the books. We still see it on TV and we still see it in the papers. But oh boy don't you get it into your head to recreate it in scale because then suddenly it is bad taste. Well mostly in the case of atrocities committed by the germans or the Japanese in WW2. In other cases it is mostly a work of art.
I cannot agree. While war always means death and misery, it is NOT executing little children. That's just a vile crime, and just as other people can't get the picture out of their heads, so can't I.
And believe me, the nationality of the criminals is of no importance. Show other nations' soldiers in cold-blooded murder of children, and I'll object just as violently!
R.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 03:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not to sound too much like a cranky old man but I would propose that the problem is that we've cheapened the word "diorama" over the past 20-30 years or so in modeling circles. What used to be a very specific type of scene (one that tells a story and/or conveys a purposeful emotional response in the viewer) has become a catch-all term for any model placed on a scenic base with (usually) a figure or two. It takes a special type of artist to pull off the former while the vast majority of the rest of us are content with the latter. What winnows it down even more are the ones who can evoke the emotion but also have the ability to get all the technical fine details right.
I think what you're describing here is the current understanding of the difference between "diorama" and "vignette." But even Sheppard Paine himself allowed the diorama builder to simply show off his models in a landscaped scene without trying to tell a story, so I don't agree that we've "cheapened" the definition of "diorama," but I do think we've refined our appreciation of the scenic elements of the model-maker's art.
I think the current understanding is that a diorama is a "story based" modeled scene, and vignette is a "model-based" scene. The difference between the two is the INTENT of the model builder.
If the builder intends to convey a story to his viewing audience, then the work is planned and executed as a diorama. The story is an essential part of the total work, and how well (technically and artistically) the builder tells his story is the measure of the diorama.
If the builder only intends to show off the models in the context of history and environment, but has no planned or attempted story to tell, then the work is a vignette. Here the measure of effectiveness is focused on the technical and aesthetic aspects of the model-making.
Of course, the historical and environmental context of the scene is also important with the diorama, but these elements are incidental to the main intent which is for the builder to "tell" his story to the viewer. However, the technical quality of the model-making is also crucial and usually effects how well the diorama builder is able to compose the elements (figures, vehicles - if any- and groundwork).
John's "diodrama" seems to me to be a particular subset of the diorama genre where the descriptive term coined focuses in the kind of story being told, but in all cases, the diorama must tell a story, no matter how "dramatic" that story might or might not be.
However, be it a vignette with no particular story or an epic diorama, the principles, rules and characteristics of good or effective composition apply. Even a vignette with no story to tell must be composed well, and no diorama can tell its story at all without good composition.
A builder can have a great story to tell, and he can even have technical modeling skills of the highest order, but if he fails to apply the common principles, rules and characteristics of composition, then his diorama will not work. Any diorama builder who has to explain his story to the viewer has probably failed in his composition. The diorama should "say" everything that the builder has to "tell" the viewer without the need for any title or written or verbal description. Only effective composition coupled with excellent model-making skills allow this.
It doesn't matter whether the model-builder is composing the 3-D scenic equivalent of a "landscape," a "still life," or an epic action scene, without good composition he will not hold the viewer's attention nor will he be able to lead the viewer around the scene. So, the model-builder not only has to hold his viewer's attention, but he has to "lead" his viewer around his work by using the composition to manipulate the way the viewer looks at the work.
To make all this even more complicated, dioramas and vignettes are composed and constructed in 3-D (boxed dioramas excepted), so whereas the photographer or painter is able to control the viewer's perspective, the model-builder must take into consideration all 360 degrees of possible perspective and 3-dimensions when he composes his work.
If the model-maker can't hold his viewer's attention, then he will not be able to either show off the technical, historical or aesthetic characteristics of his models (vignettes) or "tell" his story (dioramas).
My .02...
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 04:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...The story is an essential part of the total work, and how well the builder tells his story is the measure of the diorama...
the diorama must tell a story, no matter how "dramatic" that story might or might not be...
Even a vignette with no story to tell must be composed well, and no diorama can tell its story at all without good composition...
Any diorama builder who has to explain his story to the viewer has probably failed in his composition. The diorama should "say" everything that the builder has to "tell" the viewer without the need for any title or written or verbal description. Only effective composition coupled with excellent model-making skills allow this.
My .02...
A big AMEN to that!
Looking at the McPherson vignette from Horan, you don't need to know who the wounded officer is, you don't need to know the full historical context, you know from what Horan gives you that a union officer has been wounded, a union sergeant is comforting him and the confederates who may have shot the officer are looking on. The emotion and story are conveyed completely with only four figures. In his Gandamak dio, you don't need to know the history of the event or even who these soldiers are nor the story of Captain Souter who is the central character in the scene. You see their desperation. There is a soldier, not easily seen in the photo, who is comforting a young drummer boy and shielding him from the sight of the slaughter.
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 05:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I cannot agree. While war always means death and misery, it is NOT executing little children. That's just a vile crime, and just as other people can't get the picture out of their heads, so can't I.
And believe me, the nationality of the criminals is of no importance. Show other nations' soldiers in cold-blooded murder of children, and I'll object just as violently!
R.
Don't get me wrong it is not like I intensely enjoy seeing graphic diorama's or other artworks like that. For me the subject is just as heavy. And I object to [b]any[b] innocent people being killed. No matter what age. But if we have all seen the stuff in Original footage, movies and in pictures I don't see much difference when it is reproduced in scale as well. I have seen some truely thought provoking diorama's through the years ranging from the Killing fields to the collaboration between Rick Lawler and Marcus Lack with the railwagon and the clothes. There was a guy who made the entrance to Auschwitz. All things of museum quality. And yes, heavy as hell. But nontheless very impressive.
WARCLOUD
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 07:38 AM UTC
I personally have no issue with depicting reality. It is what it is. As with everything, freedom of choice. Express whatever you will in your art. People can choose to not view it.
Do these top level diorama builders actually do this professionally? Do they build for private collections? Museums? Historical societies? Military veterans organizations? I'm trying to figure out who would buy? Because they HAVE to be quite expensive to purchase, yes?? Just the sheer amount of TIME involved, not considering the materials, just raw LABOR, must be outrageous..so unless guys are living under bridges eating dog chow while building dioramas, there's a huge mystery here. Who buys these works, and what kind of money?
Do these top level diorama builders actually do this professionally? Do they build for private collections? Museums? Historical societies? Military veterans organizations? I'm trying to figure out who would buy? Because they HAVE to be quite expensive to purchase, yes?? Just the sheer amount of TIME involved, not considering the materials, just raw LABOR, must be outrageous..so unless guys are living under bridges eating dog chow while building dioramas, there's a huge mystery here. Who buys these works, and what kind of money?
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally have no issue with depicting reality. It is what it is. As with everything, freedom of choice. Express whatever you will in your art. People can choose to not view it.
Do these top level diorama builders actually do this professionally? Do they build for private collections? Museums? Historical societies? Military veterans organizations? I'm trying to figure out who would buy? Because they HAVE to be quite expensive to purchase, yes?? Just the sheer amount of TIME involved, not considering the materials, just raw LABOR, must be outrageous..so unless guys are living under bridges eating dog chow while building dioramas, there's a huge mystery here. Who buys these works, and what kind of money?
Well, Shep Paine made his bones building dioramas for Monogram. Those famous scene included in the boxes back in the mid 70's were his weekly, as in one a week, work.
The works of Bill Horan are collected by people who recognize the quality of his art. A number of his originals have been apparently turned into commercial casts by several companies.
Attend a major figure show and you'll see the deals going down. Some sculptors produce one off items for sale or hire themselves out for various figure companies for individual figures or vignettes in a box.
Prices? A top end sculptor can expect $10,000 for a master of a 54mm figure. Finished individual pieces can go well into the thousands. The high quality, but mass produced St Petersburg Collection brings in $125 for a single figure.
In my experience, museums are looking for 6 foot models: the ones that look good and representative of their subjects from six feet away. These can be supplied at little to no cost by clubs and individuals of average talent. The top end items by the cream of figurists and dioramists will get to a museum only as bequeathed gifts of collectors.
dolly15
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 11:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally have no issue with depicting reality. It is what it is. As with everything, freedom of choice. Express whatever you will in your art. People can choose to not view it.
Do these top level diorama builders actually do this professionally? Do they build for private collections? Museums? Historical societies? Military veterans organizations? I'm trying to figure out who would buy? Because they HAVE to be quite expensive to purchase, yes?? Just the sheer amount of TIME involved, not considering the materials, just raw LABOR, must be outrageous..so unless guys are living under bridges eating dog chow while building dioramas, there's a huge mystery here. Who buys these works, and what kind of money?
What an interesting discussion this has become.My first diodrama HMS Victory I built when I was still working,at night, on weekends etc...It took me 6,000 hours shop time to build over a period many years.My second diorama was not what I would call a diodrama today.At the age of 60 I turned to building 1/16th dioramas of WW1 aircraft with no intention of selling them, in fact I planned to put it in an old TV cabinet I had and keep it just for my own amusement.Well one thing led to another and I was contacted by the Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa.In all I have built four dioramas for them in the last 12 years.I originally offered them as donations but have since had them evaluated by Shep Paine and Ken Hamilton, both published authors on the subject,and have received income tax relief over many years.I never expected or planned this at all,just a lucky break I guess.Most artist's are discovered this way but it isn't an overnight thing you gotta pay your dues in time and effort just to get the chance.
dolly15
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 12:20 PM UTC
WARCLOUD
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 09:38 PM UTC
That's just astonishing. Magical. Like a fine art work..well, it is isn't it?
Does he sculpt all the figures? Is it completely "scratch built"?? Where do I get his book?
Does he sculpt all the figures? Is it completely "scratch built"?? Where do I get his book?
dolly15
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 10:14 PM UTC
Shep does both, he sculpts and modifies existing figures to suit his needs.The rest is scratch.
His "How to Build Dioramas" book is a classic,any hobby shop should be able to get it for you,even try ebay.Any problems let me know.Cheers! John.
His "How to Build Dioramas" book is a classic,any hobby shop should be able to get it for you,even try ebay.Any problems let me know.Cheers! John.
dolly15
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2013 - 10:43 PM UTC
spacewolfdad
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 12:40 PM UTC
Hi,
Shep Paine was the inspirational person who got me into serious modelling. I had just discovered Historex Napoleonics and was putting them together like 'toy soldiers' when I saw his 'Eve of Essling' and was blown away...
Then I saw his 'Whiff of Grape' and knew I wanted to model like this man...
Here are some more examples of his work on this website...
http://sheperdpaine.com/gallery/Historex/
Enjoy...
All the best,
Paul
Shep Paine was the inspirational person who got me into serious modelling. I had just discovered Historex Napoleonics and was putting them together like 'toy soldiers' when I saw his 'Eve of Essling' and was blown away...
Then I saw his 'Whiff of Grape' and knew I wanted to model like this man...
Here are some more examples of his work on this website...
http://sheperdpaine.com/gallery/Historex/
Enjoy...
All the best,
Paul
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 01:27 PM UTC
Had to watch "Zulu", after I showed it to my dad. Did you know that the battle at Rourke's Rift was never supposed to happen? The Zulu king, Ketchewae wanted to settle it peaceably. But, the Zulu warriors who did not get to participate in the battle of Ischandawala (don't think that is the correct spelling) went after the hospital and mission on their own. This is also why the Zulus, at the end of the battle, saluted the British.
1stjaeger
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 09:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi,
Shep Paine was the inspirational person who got me into serious modelling. I had just discovered Historex Napoleonics and was putting them together like 'toy soldiers' when I saw his 'Eve of Essling' and was blown away...
Then I saw his 'Whiff of Grape' and knew I wanted to model like this man...
Here are some more examples of his work on this website...
http://sheperdpaine.com/gallery/Historex/
Enjoy...
All the best,
Paul
Fully agree!
Thanks for posting the link. Even if I know all of his work, it is always fascinating to take another look at his work! And then there were other artists too..!!
Cheers
Romain
WARCLOUD
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 09:44 PM UTC
After looking at these amazing works, I am torn between depression and exitement..
spacewolfdad
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 12:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
After looking at these amazing works, I am torn between depression and exitement..
Hi Gary,
I have two maxims in life 1) there is always somebody better than you. 2) you don't ask you don't get.
The first one is very good at grounding you when it comes to modelling, it really is the case that there WILL be always somebody better than you, but if you try your best and see improvement with every build what else can you hope for. These so called 'Masters' must have made rubbish models at some point before they became so good, there's hope for us all yet. So don't get depressed, just get inspired.
All the best,
Paul
WARCLOUD
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 01:26 AM UTC
The one big source of my depression is not ability, it's time. it's not so much the incredible quality of these works by these Master modellers, it's the fact they got them done in the span of a human lifetime..
I sit down to assemble a soldier figure...detach parts, clean up mold seams, test fit, glue...come back, paint..attach painted gear..do the weapon..you know the drill. even a kit figure OOB with no mods is gonna take me a whole day and a night to do. If I have mods and putty to cure, 2 days and nights. these Shep Paine pieces for Monogram..some of them in a week??? OMG. I'm up to my neck right now in 2 diorama projects, one of which I began a long time ago, and I have a good size stash of kits for all these other ideas rattling around in my head, and at 58 yrs old I seriously begin to question if I have enough of my life on Earth remaining to do half of what i want to do..and still live a life that is. I do need to make a living and pay attention to my spouse and talk to my kids occasionally too!
I sit down to assemble a soldier figure...detach parts, clean up mold seams, test fit, glue...come back, paint..attach painted gear..do the weapon..you know the drill. even a kit figure OOB with no mods is gonna take me a whole day and a night to do. If I have mods and putty to cure, 2 days and nights. these Shep Paine pieces for Monogram..some of them in a week??? OMG. I'm up to my neck right now in 2 diorama projects, one of which I began a long time ago, and I have a good size stash of kits for all these other ideas rattling around in my head, and at 58 yrs old I seriously begin to question if I have enough of my life on Earth remaining to do half of what i want to do..and still live a life that is. I do need to make a living and pay attention to my spouse and talk to my kids occasionally too!
gremlinz
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 01:31 AM UTC
I've just spent the evening reading this (actually it's 1.23am here). Like most I was inspired a lot by Shep Paine's work and I never build anything without a diorama. Of late I've been moving more and more toward builds that convey a sense of action but I find it very hard to convey exactly what is going on.
This was my last completely finished diorama (I've since painted the end of the bridge a very dark grey) and I'd appreciate any honest input on where people think it could be improved. And I mean honest, I'm thick skinned and you can't improve without people giving you a heads up on what needs improving.
If you need more pictures there's plenty HERE
This is a site worth checking out too http://www.jbadiorama.com/
This was my last completely finished diorama (I've since painted the end of the bridge a very dark grey) and I'd appreciate any honest input on where people think it could be improved. And I mean honest, I'm thick skinned and you can't improve without people giving you a heads up on what needs improving.
If you need more pictures there's plenty HERE
This is a site worth checking out too http://www.jbadiorama.com/
gremlinz
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 01:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The one big source of my depression is not ability, it's time. it's not so much the incredible quality of these works by these Master modellers, it's the fact they got them done in the span of a human lifetime..
I sit down to assemble a soldier figure...detach parts, clean up mold seams, test fit, glue...come back, paint..attach painted gear..do the weapon..you know the drill. even a kit figure OOB with no mods is gonna take me a whole day and a night to do. If I have mods and putty to cure, 2 days and nights. these Shep Paine pieces for Monogram..some of them in a week??? OMG. I'm up to my neck right now in 2 diorama projects, one of which I began a long time ago, and I have a good size stash of kits for all these other ideas rattling around in my head, and at 58 yrs old I seriously begin to question if I have enough of my life on Earth remaining to do half of what i want to do..and still live a life that is. I do need to make a living and pay attention to my spouse and talk to my kids occasionally too!
Amen to that. For an average diorama I would say I only spend around 10% of the time on the vehicle, that's the easy part. I find each figure can take almost as long as the vehicle. Then there's al the other little bits, then the actual diorama. I can build ten kits a year but usually only manage one complete diorama (most average around 8-12 figures).