If a soldier or Marine was large and strong enough, is it possible to fire the M240G from the shoulder as a rifle for extended periods of time and "running and gunning?" I know the M249 SAW and M60E3 could be done this way with decent accuracy, but how about the M240G? I've read in non-fiction books of a soldier hefting and firing the M240G by himself, but I don't know if that was from the hip or the shoulder. This is for dismounted infantry, not firing the M240 from a pedestal or swing-arm mount.
Finally, would such an action firing from the shoulder dismounted normally be carried out by regular infantry or Special Forces? And if not the M240G, what weapons would you recommend as a replacement for firing from the U.S. G.I.'s shoulder (meaning, what is the heaviest firepower possible to fire from one's shoulder with decent and effective accuracy, excluding sniper rifles): RPK, RPD, SAW, PKM, or just stick with rifles and carbines?
Thanks!
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Firing M240G From the Shoulder...true?
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 12:45 PM UTC
Removed by original poster on 07/30/13 - 00:52:47 (GMT).
griffontech
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 01:09 PM UTC
I've fired the C6 GPMG (Canadian version) from the shoulder while on training patrols. It is do-able, but not great. Remember, it weighs almost 27 or 28 pounds, not including ammo. Try holding this to your shoulder and run, while trying to shoot accurately. If you are stopped and braced, it would be better.
Thundergrunt
Joined: November 01, 2009
KitMaker: 657 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 01:14 PM UTC
Peter
I can tell you first hand you can do it im 5'10 230, it is tough and you need to pick when and where you do it that monster is about 27lbs plus rounds and all your S!@#, but I just returned from deployment, and I carried a 240B on few missions and fired from the shoulder my first belt standing and kneeling. I had an Elcan MGO and Peq-15, sling and bipods. You can do it especially with adreanelin, Much easier with the 249. Here is a pic with my 249 CQSPW. I have to look I think I have a 240 pic.
I can tell you first hand you can do it im 5'10 230, it is tough and you need to pick when and where you do it that monster is about 27lbs plus rounds and all your S!@#, but I just returned from deployment, and I carried a 240B on few missions and fired from the shoulder my first belt standing and kneeling. I had an Elcan MGO and Peq-15, sling and bipods. You can do it especially with adreanelin, Much easier with the 249. Here is a pic with my 249 CQSPW. I have to look I think I have a 240 pic.
BigDaddybluesman
Joined: November 17, 2010
KitMaker: 119 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 02:47 PM UTC
It's about 30 pounds plus ammo (M240B). I saw a skinny Sgt. fire an M60 from the shoulder in 1980 or so during basic. If you can shoot you can shoot. How long can a guy hold it there and how many rounds can he fire, that's another story. In battle with the adrenaline pumping I sure it's a long enough time if he doesn't mind becoming a bullet magnet for the enemy.
Usually the most firepower I have seen being fired from the shoulder is the 5.56mm M249. Tactically speaking firing from the shoulder of any weapon unsupported is not a good idea unless prone. You are not as accurate and not under cover. You are a sitting duck or standing rather. The first thing anybody who is taught correctly is to find cover. You either use the door for the HUMVEE or a wall or the side of a building anything that protects you from fire. You return fire once you have established a good position that provides cover.
You may fire while on the move to that cover or throw a smoke grenade to cover your move. You really never stand there and fire unless you are John Wayne.
Usually the most firepower I have seen being fired from the shoulder is the 5.56mm M249. Tactically speaking firing from the shoulder of any weapon unsupported is not a good idea unless prone. You are not as accurate and not under cover. You are a sitting duck or standing rather. The first thing anybody who is taught correctly is to find cover. You either use the door for the HUMVEE or a wall or the side of a building anything that protects you from fire. You return fire once you have established a good position that provides cover.
You may fire while on the move to that cover or throw a smoke grenade to cover your move. You really never stand there and fire unless you are John Wayne.
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 03:02 PM UTC
Hey all, thanks for the replies.
So based on the replies, it is do-able, but not really recommended or even needed since as mentioned, it weighs close to 30 lbs. I take it the accuracy isn't that great either when fired unsupported.
I have a figure I could probably kitbash to make such a pose as firing a M240G from the shoulder, but based on the replies, I may not go ahead with it. It's confirmed, but I'm not really reading the reason why someone would fire it from the shoulder though... The figure might be huge for 1/35 scale so I thought the figure may be able to handle a M240G from the shoulder.
So based on the replies, it is do-able, but not really recommended or even needed since as mentioned, it weighs close to 30 lbs. I take it the accuracy isn't that great either when fired unsupported.
I have a figure I could probably kitbash to make such a pose as firing a M240G from the shoulder, but based on the replies, I may not go ahead with it. It's confirmed, but I'm not really reading the reason why someone would fire it from the shoulder though... The figure might be huge for 1/35 scale so I thought the figure may be able to handle a M240G from the shoulder.
1stjaeger
Joined: May 20, 2011
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 08:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You are a sitting duck or standing rather. The first thing anybody who is taught correctly is to find cover. You either use the door for the HUMVEE or a wall or the side of a building anything that protects you from fire. You return fire once you have established a good position that provides cover.
You may fire while on the move to that cover or throw a smoke grenade to cover your move. You really never stand there and fire unless you are John Wayne.
thanks for reminding that!!
cheers
Romain
WARCLOUD
Joined: March 31, 2012
KitMaker: 280 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 08:49 PM UTC
Good gawd, the 240 is a pig! We had them as co-axial turret MG's in our M60a1-a3 tanks in the '80s, and stowed in the tank kit was a shoulder stock and pistol grip so you could possibly take it with you in a bail-out...between the 240 and the M60, I can't tell you which I HATED most..heavy unweildly pigs! Fire from the shoulder? Why? Masochism?
Historical note: at the end of WW2, the US tested MG42 extensively, to see if this amazing modern design would be suitable for US troops. Politics, lobbying, protectionist policy and the "not invented here" bias made sure all tests were "unsatisfactory". All infantrymen should mourn this event..European / NATO troops are to this day carrying MG3 (MG42 in 7.62) and I hear quite happy to..
Historical note: at the end of WW2, the US tested MG42 extensively, to see if this amazing modern design would be suitable for US troops. Politics, lobbying, protectionist policy and the "not invented here" bias made sure all tests were "unsatisfactory". All infantrymen should mourn this event..European / NATO troops are to this day carrying MG3 (MG42 in 7.62) and I hear quite happy to..
cadredave
Joined: March 26, 2006
KitMaker: 11 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 09:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
All infantrymen should mourn this event..European / NATO troops are to this day carrying MG3 (MG42 in 7.62) and I hear quite happy to..
Well Ive got a feeling far more countries in Nato/Europe use the Mag 58 more than they do the MG3 I grew up in the NZ Army on the L7A1 GPMG which have been replaced by the C9 7.62mm Minimi for section & platoon fire support with the Mag 58 used in the SFMG role...
Was taught to fire the Gimpy in other position but was always told if they wanted you to fire it in the shoulder they would not have designed it with a bipod and belt fed
melonhead
Joined: July 29, 2010
KitMaker: 662 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 01:55 PM UTC
could you fire the 240 from the shoulder....absolutely. Can you do it for a decent period of time...sure. is it going to be accurate...absolutely not. is your upper body going to strain while doing this....ya, you betch your sweet butt it will. you will not be able to do it for extended periods of time. but that depends on what you mean by "extended periods of time"
It can be done, here is video proof of a Marine doing it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6QmMenEIQ8
if you are going to do a shoulder fire situation, i would do the SAW. Its a more realistic situation.
It can be done, here is video proof of a Marine doing it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6QmMenEIQ8
if you are going to do a shoulder fire situation, i would do the SAW. Its a more realistic situation.
TacticalSquirrel
Joined: May 12, 2010
KitMaker: 546 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 05:56 PM UTC
We mount a vertical grip on the 9 o clock rail of our 240Bs for dismount, more comfortable to carry and you can fire it offhand that way a lot easier than trying to hold under the gas tube/bipod while your forearm strains and gets pelted with brass. It also keeps your support arm clear of the belt more if your not using a nut sack and just have a contact belt.
WARCLOUD
Joined: March 31, 2012
KitMaker: 280 posts
Armorama: 274 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 08:25 PM UTC
Well yes..before declaring anything impossible one should go find a combat Marine...
WARCLOUD
Joined: March 31, 2012
KitMaker: 280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 08:35 PM UTC
And Dave K..possibly correct on the number of NATO countries using the FN, but I'd actually check that before making a declaration...Germany certainly isn't, and the Nordic end of the Alliance is MG3. I'm just a fan boy, sorry. I owned an MG3 and MG42 and it is just a shocking space-age design far ahead of the curve even today...mechanical genius. Light, quick, easy to live with, furious fire rate. The FN does have that cool gas regulator where you can go from 650 rpm to 1000 with the twist of the knob though..but it's so HEAVY!
WARCLOUD
Joined: March 31, 2012
KitMaker: 280 posts
Armorama: 274 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 08:40 PM UTC
Of course if you freehand a '42 you should stand against a tree or sumthin....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTyQRBhJrmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTyQRBhJrmI
TacticalSquirrel
Joined: May 12, 2010
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 538 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 05:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And Dave K..possibly correct on the number of NATO countries using the FN, but I'd actually check that before making a declaration...Germany certainly isn't, and the Nordic end of the Alliance is MG3. I'm just a fan boy, sorry. I owned an MG3 and MG42 and it is just a shocking space-age design far ahead of the curve even today...mechanical genius. Light, quick, easy to live with, furious fire rate. The FN does have that cool gas regulator where you can go from 650 rpm to 1000 with the twist of the knob though..but it's so HEAVY!
My friend, meet the M240L.
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 09:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My friend, meet the M240L.
Yes, I heard of the M240L being made specifically for dismounted troops. How does performance and maneuverability compare to the M240G? I haven't read any reports on if troops like the M240L over the G. Is the barrel too light for sustained fire? I don't think Live-Resin produces the M240L yet.
Thanks.
TacticalSquirrel
Joined: May 12, 2010
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 538 posts
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2013 - 04:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
My friend, meet the M240L.
Yes, I heard of the M240L being made specifically for dismounted troops. How does performance and maneuverability compare to the M240G? I haven't read any reports on if troops like the M240L over the G. Is the barrel too light for sustained fire? I don't think Live-Resin produces the M240L yet.
Thanks.
There is much love for the Lima, a lighter 240 can never be a bad thing. Only issue I've heard of was that it didn't react well to be vehicle mounted on pointless mounts due to the steel pins we use and they so out quick. Supposedly they fixed that with a steel insert. The stocks a being retrofitted to standard 240 and 249s, and you can order replacement Lima barrels for standard 240s. I also dig the new pistol grip and safety eat up vs the older one.
Also, the golf has gone the way of the dodo as the Marines have been converting their 240s to Bravos.
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 03:20 AM UTC
Speaking as a former infantryman of long service I would say it's possible to fire that weapon from the hip or shoulder if you are strong enough and have the experience.
The question is,not that you can do it,but can you do it and actually hit anything? That is where the experience comes to play. Plus you must remember the main reason for the crew served weapon such as this one is to give suppressive fire. If anyone gets hit while you are doing so then fine but laying down fire is paramount. When you come in contact with an enemy the rule is return fire,then gain fire superiority. When and if this is achieved the leader must decide to either break contact or manuever and destroy the contact. Just sayin.
So,with that in mind yes,I am positive given the PT standards of the modern Marine infantryman there are plenty of guys that can fire that beast on the run from shoulder or hip!
Giving props to my brothers from another mother.
J
The question is,not that you can do it,but can you do it and actually hit anything? That is where the experience comes to play. Plus you must remember the main reason for the crew served weapon such as this one is to give suppressive fire. If anyone gets hit while you are doing so then fine but laying down fire is paramount. When you come in contact with an enemy the rule is return fire,then gain fire superiority. When and if this is achieved the leader must decide to either break contact or manuever and destroy the contact. Just sayin.
So,with that in mind yes,I am positive given the PT standards of the modern Marine infantryman there are plenty of guys that can fire that beast on the run from shoulder or hip!
Giving props to my brothers from another mother.
J
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 04:24 AM UTC
When your pucker factor goes through the roof, you can lift just about anything. Although, I agree with Jerry, hitting something is an entirely different question. You would sure scare the hell out of anyone (to include the good guys) 
PS-- I wonder how the girls going into combat units will do it
PS-- I wonder how the girls going into combat units will do it
Foxtrot1
Joined: March 03, 2011
KitMaker: 234 posts
Armorama: 200 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 04:43 AM UTC
Fired the FN MAG from my shoulder a few times. Not too practical, but it is possible. Kicks like hell though.
Prefer to set that b***h up on its bi-pod, to be honest.
Prefer to set that b***h up on its bi-pod, to be honest.
Removed by original poster on 08/03/13 - 17:36:52 (GMT).
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 06:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
When your pucker factor goes through the roof, you can lift just about anything. Although, I agree with Jerry, hitting something is an entirely different question. You would sure scare the hell out of anyone (to include the good guys)
PS-- I wonder how the girls going into combat units will do it
Having seen some of the more buff girls in my life in the 82nd airborne pack shed I have no doubt that they can do it as well as the guys.
I have no probs having the women let into combat units if the standards remain the same. Problem is,I know from experience the weenies in Tradoc will lower the standards officially or unoficially so the politically correct crew will be mollified. This will lower the standards all around once again so some one will suffer. As that job is not serving hamburgers at Micky d's and people will get killed I get a little steamed. But hey,the writing is on the wall. Once the PC crowd gets involved.it's a forgone conclusion and there will be women in the Infantry before long.
Once again though,if a women can carry her weight in her rucksack and pull the bigger guys out of harms way when wounded then why not? I just know they won't be held to the same standard.
J
MrMox
Joined: July 18, 2003
KitMaker: 3,377 posts
Armorama: 1,088 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 08:58 AM UTC
I have fired the MG3 from both the hip and shoulder with live ammo - it makes a lot of noise, and thats about it - hitting anything is sheer luck...
But aside from that quite fun ...
But aside from that quite fun ...
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 11:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWhen your pucker factor goes through the roof, you can lift just about anything. Although, I agree with Jerry, hitting something is an entirely different question. You would sure scare the hell out of anyone (to include the good guys)
PS-- I wonder how the girls going into combat units will do it
Having seen some of the more buff girls in my life in the 82nd airborne pack shed I have no doubt that they can do it as well as the guys.
I have no probs having the women let into combat units if the standards remain the same. Problem is,I know from experience the weenies in Tradoc will lower the standards officially or unoficially so the politically correct crew will be mollified. This will lower the standards all around once again so some one will suffer. As that job is not serving hamburgers at Micky d's and people will get killed I get a little steamed. But hey,the writing is on the wall. Once the PC crowd gets involved.it's a forgone conclusion and there will be women in the Infantry before long.
Once again though,if a women can carry her weight in her rucksack and pull the bigger guys out of harms way when wounded then why not? I just know they won't be held to the same standard.
J
It is a given that they will either come up with female standards (which are no standards) or "gender neutral" (whatever that is) to ensure females are taken into the combat arms. I agree wholeheartedly with you that I have no objection to woman going to Ranger School. But, she does and goes through the same crap that we did to make it. Time will tell.
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 01:16 PM UTC
So if a soldier were to fire a M249 (regular or Para) SAW from the shoulder, would the accuracy and realism be vastly different and (much) better compared to firing the M240 from the shoulder?
We're talking about a difference of 10+ pounds and 5.56mm and perhaps 100 extra rounds (or is the 100-round assault pack preferred?).
We're talking about a difference of 10+ pounds and 5.56mm and perhaps 100 extra rounds (or is the 100-round assault pack preferred?).
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