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Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Where is, the suffering?
jrutman
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 02:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text




Quoted Text

this dio deserves more than just a mention IMHO. The composition, the sharp angle, the winterly vegetation, the cold you could almost feel...and now this poor fellow wrapped tightly in his blanket and suffering...that's art if I'm not mistaken!

Kudos to you Sir and thanks for sharing!





Cheers

Romain



Thank you for the kind comments.

https://gallery.kitmaker.net/showgallery.php?cat=23428

Cheers,
C.





I agree with Romain. Your dio is awesome Charles. You really captured the moment on the guy in the sleds' face brilliantly,
J
Robbd01
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 02:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am sorry about my bad english.
most modellers don't show the darker side of war! yes you nailed it!
When they do it's scratch built!
Or when they do they get kicked out of contest



Joel, Your question has come up several times. Not sure if there is a right or correct answer to your question. I for one really don't see the need to model 'suffering' into whatever subject I am doing. I seem to focus on the machine not what it was designed to do. I also don't do figures so I can't answer why there are not more sad faced figures then happy faced ones. Heck, build what you want and forget the contest. What is more important winning the contest or getting your point across? I have not seen a entry rejected for 'suffering' subjects so far in the shows I go to. I know there is a rule of being too graphic due to the fact there is also children at these shows which makes sense. So if you want to show your shot up tank with burnt up, blown apart dead tank crewman, or build that diorama with an AMT '65 Mustang after it lost control and flipped with the driver sprawled nearby and by all means go for it For me just getting it built and finished correctly is enough for me. I see myself first a modeler not an artist though I tend to have to use artists skills to complete my project. Just my $.02 (after taxes).

Cheers
Grauwolf
#084
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 03:35 AM UTC
Joel,

It is my belief that most people who model military subjects are primarily interested in depicting the machines rather than the horrors of war.

Modelers go to great lengths to render them as they are seen in their environment; beaten, chipped, weathered,
battle damaged etc.

If you look at some of these models, one can label them works of art.

I my opinion, very few modelers can model the horrors of war without turning the scene into nothing more than
a bunch of soldiers all bloody up and with dismembered body parts.....and nothing but a joke.

If you are going to model the horrors of war, you have got to be a damn good artist and convey an emotional
reaction to a scene without showing the violence and the blood and guts and very few modelers can do this.

And if you succeed in creating the emotional reaction without the violence, then you have succeeded in
creating a work of art and have accomplished yourself as an artist.

I'll refer to Charles' dio......no violence here but lots of suffering, I can feel the cold.

So why the need for the violence and suffering?

Cheers,
Joe
anti-hero
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 03:35 AM UTC
As others have said there are some excellent dioramas that do show the suffering and the ugly side.
These are a few pictures of an excellent dio done by Rhodes Williams (I think)called Sunflowers and the Dead.



Robbd01
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 04:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As others have said there are some excellent dioramas that do show the suffering and the ugly side.
These are a few pictures of an excellent dio done by Rhodes Williams (I think)called Sunflowers and the Dead.



Great example. Is it 'Sunflowers and the Dead' or 'Panthers in the Cemetery' . Betcha 10 Kronas your focus was all on the dead and shot up soldiers and not the 2 finely done Panthers... But that may have been the purpose of the author. For me as a modeler I want to know more about the 2 panthers.

Cheers
Removed by original poster on 09/07/13 - 16:47:59 (GMT).
anti-hero
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 05:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

As others have said there are some excellent dioramas that do show the suffering and the ugly side.
These are a few pictures of an excellent dio done by Rhodes Williams (I think)called Sunflowers and the Dead.



Great example. Is it 'Sunflowers and the Dead' or 'Panthers in the Cemetery' . Betcha 10 Kronas your focus was all on the dead and shot up soldiers and not the 2 finely done Panthers... But that may have been the purpose of the author. For me as a modeler I want to know more about the 2 panthers.

Cheers



Well, for the purpose of this thread, my focus was on the shot up soldiers.
The overall compostion, the story the dio is showing, the groundwork and all the details are what got me.
As far as the name ... I'm pretty sure it is Sunflowers and the Dead. Not positive though.
CReading
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 06:20 AM UTC
The Rhodes Williams diorama is indeed titled "Sunflowers and the Dead"


Quoted Text

I agree with Romain. Your dio is awesome Charles. You really captured the moment on the guy in the sleds' face brilliantly,
J


Thank you for the kind words.
Cheers.
C.
panorama
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 06:33 AM UTC
Hi Joel,

thanks for starting this topic. I think you hit a nerve with it. It is interesting to see the spectrum of opinions. And so far I think they all have their point.

Is modelling Art? No, it is a technique. Like painting in oils or carving wood or smithing silver. Occasionally some master shows up and creates a work of art using this technique.

I think we all here share the fascination and awe for machines created for destruction. The ones with the mean menancing look, the ones with beautiful shapes like certain planes and rockets, the... you name it.

Should we feel bad about this fascination? Why should we?! I can marvel at the lines of a ME262 without forgetting that building each and every one about 1500 people died - or better to say were killed - due to the inhumane and horrible working conditions.

You want to model a machine you like? Go for it!
You want to show it in context? Go for it!
You want to depict the suffering those machines cause? Go for it! It should not be forgotten and not be censored after all.
You want to use it to express emotions? Daunting task! But go for it!


I think there is place in this hobby for everyone and nobody should have to justify himself for the way he performs it (of cause always assumed that offending, insulting, defameing of others is not acceptable).

Michael
Okpik031
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 07:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have never, ever seen a figure with a smile on its face. Soldiers are professional killers. They have all the time in the world to think about that, after they go home.



I am sorry but this comment I really have a problem with soldiers are people that have chosen to stand up for their country and protect the ideals of their society. Just like Police Officers there always has to be someone that stands and says enough. Do soldiers take life yes in some cases lethal force is required just like Police Officers have to some times. But to call soldiers out right killers is wrong. Soldiers go where your government tells them to go and then they have to preform a job that may haunt them for the rest of their lives but without old men sitting in government playing games with the lives of their citizens and soldiers alike there would be no wars. Remember old men start wars and young men and women die in them. We should make the people that sit in the government go off and fight the wars there would likely be a lot fewer.
Lonewolf7usa
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have never, ever seen a figure with a smile on its face. Soldiers are professional killers. They have all the time in the world to think about that, after they go home.



I am sorry but this comment I really have a problem with soldiers are people that have chosen to stand up for their country and protect the ideals of their society. Just like Police Officers there always has to be someone that stands and says enough. Do soldiers take life yes in some cases lethal force is required just like Police Officers have to some times. But to call soldiers out right killers is wrong. Soldiers go where your government tells them to go and then they have to preform a job that may haunt them for the rest of their lives but without old men sitting in government playing games with the lives of their citizens and soldiers alike there would be no wars. Remember old men start wars and young men and women die in them. We should make the people that sit in the government go off and fight the wars there would likely be a lot fewer.


Amen!!!
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have never, ever seen a figure with a smile on its face. Soldiers are professional killers. They have all the time in the world to think about that, after they go home.



I am sorry but this comment I really have a problem with soldiers are people that have chosen to stand up for their country and protect the ideals of their society. Just like Police Officers there always has to be someone that stands and says enough. Do soldiers take life yes in some cases lethal force is required just like Police Officers have to some times. But to call soldiers out right killers is wrong. Soldiers go where your government tells them to go and then they have to preform a job that may haunt them for the rest of their lives but without old men sitting in government playing games with the lives of their citizens and soldiers alike there would be no wars. Remember old men start wars and young men and women die in them. We should make the people that sit in the government go off and fight the wars there would likely be a lot fewer.


Neither comment is strictly accurate in my opinion. Not every soldier "answers the call" to fight for their country alone. We live in world where professional soldiers are just that ... professional soldiers, paid to do whatever is necessary for an employeer, in different situations ... not always for ones country or for ones beliefs. I would not compare such with the police force. And there I will leave that subject and try to stay on topic.
jagerblackcorps
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Posted: Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 12:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Joel,

It is my belief that most people who model military subjects are primarily interested in depicting the machines rather than the horrors of war.

Modelers go to great lengths to render them as they are seen in their environment; beaten, chipped, weathered,
battle damaged etc.

If you look at some of these models, one can label them works of art.

I my opinion, very few modelers can model the horrors of war without turning the scene into nothing more than
a bunch of soldiers all bloody up and with dismembered body parts.....and nothing but a joke.

If you are going to model the horrors of war, you have got to be a damn good artist and convey an emotional
reaction to a scene without showing the violence and the blood and guts and very few modelers can do this.

And if you succeed in creating the emotional reaction without the violence, then you have succeeded in
creating a work of art and have accomplished yourself as an artist.

I'll refer to Charles' dio......no violence here but lots of suffering, I can feel the cold.

So why the need for the violence and suffering?

Cheers,
Joe


Wy the need for the dark side of war cause it's realism.
Without it all feels like nazi propaganda.
jagerblackcorps
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Posted: Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 12:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

As others have said there are some excellent dioramas that do show the suffering and the ugly side.
These are a few pictures of an excellent dio done by Rhodes Williams (I think)called Sunflowers and the Dead.



Great example. Is it 'Sunflowers and the Dead' or 'Panthers in the Cemetery' . Betcha 10 Kronas your focus was all on the dead and shot up soldiers and not the 2 finely done Panthers... But that may have been the purpose of the author. For me as a modeler I want to know more about the 2 panthers.

Cheers


I wonder if the two panthers is going to stop or keep rolling. This is diorama at its best!
anti-hero
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Posted: Monday, September 09, 2013 - 07:12 AM UTC
[/quote]
I wonder if the two panthers is going to stop or keep rolling. This is diorama at its best![/quote]

The Panther commander says "Keep moving."
velotrain
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Posted: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 03:45 AM UTC
OK – I’ll toss out some thoughts.

I understand that the OP was asking about the realism aspect, but since he also mentioned art a few times, I’ll say that I have a different take there. It seems the most widely held view is that it’s a combination of modeling skill and the ability to create a strong emotional reaction to a diorama. Michael raised the issue of technique vs. art, which is somewhat related to the long standing argument of art vs. craft, with such areas such as ceramics, woodwork, glassblowing, fibers, etc. relegated to a lower level than the traditional “fine” arts of painting and sculpture. I am interested in architecture and sculpture, and don’t worry much about what is or isn’t art, but do largely evaluate all objects - including dioramas - using a visual and spatial scorecard.

These are two dioramas that I very much admire, but for quite different reasons.



I like “Destination Atlantic” because I think it is extremely well designed and makes use of multiple levels, which is very unusual for dios, and it creates a visual complexity which I enjoy exploring. There are over a half-dozen mini-scenes, and you have to look at it for a while to appreciate everything that is going on. However, it does have balance and provides quiet spaces for the eye to rest, unlike say the fall of Berlin, which seems unrelentingly busy to my vision.

I have some issues with it: how realistic is it for a U-boot to be provisioning at a small French port, which won’t have the protection and specific military supplies that the dedicated bases and bunkers offer. It looks like a lot of foodstuffs were delivered to the quay more quickly than they could be stowed below – I suspect meant to create “atmosphere”, but perhaps a tad overdone. However, overall I think this diorama does an exceptional job of defining space and using it effectively, which is an important criteria for me.



While “Cocktail Hour” also has strong design qualities and multiple elevations, I am most attracted by the apparent normalcy of the scene, but with a chilling undercurrent. In fact, the first time I looked at the photo, it took me a minute to understand the title – initially interpreting it too literally. There is no carnage or blood in the scene, but for me that makes the tension all the more real.

I would consider both of these dioramas as art, although one engages me visually and the other primarily emotionally.

As for the “dark side of war”, I guess I didn’t realize that there was any “bright side”. I agree with those who argue each modeler can and should do what they wish, and that the model “media” shouldn’t excessively legislate, while understanding the concern over children at shows. However, as I believe someone else may have suggested, those same kids might go home and play video games that are far more violent and bloody than anything at the show.

I do think depiction of the dark side has to be considered as carefully as any other aspect of the overall design. There was a recent dio posted showing a soldier with his arm blown off. Outside of the excessive and unrealistically depicted blood, most of the negative response related to the comment by the clearly immature builder that he couldn’t stop laughing over it. Some of the most critical feedback was from those who had experienced combat, wondering why this kid wasted on beer thought something he knew nothing about was so amusing.

While dioramas can create a strong emotional reaction in the viewer, for myself I like to sense that there is some room for me to develop my own response, without feeling like the “story” is being force-fed or hammered in. A link to the concentration camp boxcar scene was posted in this thread, and while I can admire the modeling skill there, I felt that I was being emotionally manipulated by it – perhaps partially due to the “loaded”, iconic nature of what was - indirectly - represented. For my tastes, the winter scene is an example of showing suffering, while giving the viewer more room for their personal interpretation. YMMV
reccymech
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Posted: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 12:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ok I'm going to stick my 2cents worth in here. I am a former soldier and have seen combat. For me this hobby is therapy as well as hobby. I don't portray the darker side of war because I don't want to. I like to build because it takes my mind off of my injuries sustained while on active duty. I have fun that's all there is to it. So to all I say Just have fun and build what ever you like.



Yep, that just about sums it up for me.

Started doing models when I was growing up, left the hobby when I joined the army, and all those 'life gets in the way' stuff. And now, as a form of 'release', and therapy getting back into it. Have never given the OP topic any thought what so ever.
meowmonster
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 04:49 PM UTC
Why have I portrayed suffering in my art? Because to live is to suffer, on some existential level. But there's more to it to me.

I have friends who came back a shell of a person. I saw lives ruined because what they saw will never leave them. And this wasn't something like WWII, which showed some of the greatest cruelty mankind has ever been capable of. I hope to portray it to show how terrible it is-there is no glory in suffering. Anyone who thinks it's funny is not only in it for the wrong reason, they (as a former certified counselor) need to have their head checked.

To the servicemen in this thread, first, I thank you for your service, I would have loved to serve if I had been healthy enough. And I see a real need for the dioramas you create as well. Many of us don't know about a soldier's life either-and who better to tell those stories?

The inspiration I have doesn't really come from the news, much of it comes from the horror stories bestowed upon me by the people that lived them. Just the story can keep me up at night many times-just like the ones of the wars of the past. I would recall such only to show how horrible it was-to impress on those people for whom a text reading is too "dead" that what has happened in the past cannot happen again.

Then again, I got in trouble in school for doing pastels of a blood-covered Christ.

It's my hope that I've typed something understandable, and that my intentions come across clearly. I would have gladly served my country if I were able-but I feel in the wake of today's first person shooter addicted kids that the reality of war needs to be addressed. And the reality is there is nothing beautiful about the business of war, necessary though it may be (and I certainly believe it has been necessary before, and will be again.) We are free because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf is certainly 100% true-but there are too many kids that think that it's all about "kill counts" and "head shots" when throughout history it's been about "collateral damage" and "expendable lives." Every drop of blood that falls to the ground is a tragedy. Every one is someone's son, daughter, father, mother. I make dioramas for the ones for whom nobody will tell their story.

I'm too long winded, I think. But I don't want to shy away from accurately presenting a subject. It's just many subjects have no pretty side.
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