Hi guys, I'll bet you can guess what the question will be - I'm just starting this kit, do I Zim or not? The excellent Mr Volstad's box art shows it without, and I know his pictures are always well researched. All my pictures show that the hull has Zimmerit, as I thought they were all made from remanufactured old Pz IV hulls. The parts in the box would seem to suggest that it is based on an Ausf H hull = Zimmerit a must! No mention of it in the instructions, also bolted and plain glacis plate but no guidance which goes with which marking plan (no surprise there then).

Steve;

As I am not sure which Dragon Wirbel - the early G (w/out zimm, kit 6342), or the later H (w/out zimm, kit 6540), your question is a bit open-ended!

Here would be the "probably un-contested" facts: Wirbelwind started production only from ca JUN+ 1944. The first batches were built by Ostbau Sagan using refurbished Pz IV hulls. These included both G and H. Later Wirbel production included ausf J. hulls.

And about zimmerit:

LOTS of debates here and elsewhere on that! Many Wirbels surely did have zimm'd hulls. NO Ausf G hull ever had original production factory zimmerit applied. All G production ended before zimm became available, let alone ordered into facory application (from DEC 1943). Of ausf H... there were some 3775 or so made between April 1943 and JUL 1944. So all April 43 - NOV 43 (over 1/2 year of production) H also did NOT get any OEM factory zimm. That is, FAIK, perhaps 1200 IV-H tanks... without factory zimm!

So, Sagan had plenty of opportunity to build either a G or H Wirbel which had no factory zimm. But, to complicate matters, both battle-damaged G and H (probably, when you think about it, more likely to have been earlier H, as few German tanks were recovered after mid 1944 as the Germans were in retreat...) were recovered whenever possible and sent to Nibelungenwerke for refurbishment. These were often zimmeritted while there, so there would certainly have been some refurbed G with zimm, and some refurbed pre-DEC 43 H with zimm. But you really do have choices as to zimm or not for either the G or H kit. Basically, any G with zimm is a post-production / refurb zimm job, whereas H may be that or, if later production, OEM zimm - maybe different patterns and different degree of wear.

Were ALL H Wirbels built on zimm'd hulls? ONLY if there was some conscious demand or intent to do so. Any Wirbel assembled after SEP 1944, when zimm application ceased, could have utilized a refurbed zimm'd hull or a later repair hull which came in without zimm and did not get zimm, or an earlier pre-zimm hull which came in and was used after AUG 1944 and thus not zimm'd, OR (last few) a new J hull without zimm. There was clear opportunity to have a non-zimm'd Wirbel G or H.

I think you have choices, friend!

Bob

Thanks Bob, without is easier, and looks like would be acceptable historically.

Wirbelwind without zimmerit

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wirbelwind_CFB_Borden_1.jpg

spart from the sponson sides that is... refurbished then.. ;-)

Sadly, Henk, that Wirbel at Camp Borden probably originally had zimm on it, but that has all been lost to the elements and souvenir chippers over the last 70 years or so!

I AM sure that there were Wirbels without zimm, but I believe folks have pretty much made a case that this was not one of those!

Bob

I know I'm resurrecting the dead, but would this be proof of a non-zimmerit Wirbelwind? The front armor plate looks pretty smooth.



This one also looks clean:

The second photo looks suspiciously like a model.

"Fear the (awakened) dead"! A great resurrection!

I'm with Matt on the bottom pic likely being of a model.

But, I think that you have soundly scored with your upper pic, Shell! It definitely looks like a real Wirbel, on either a clean late G or early H hull, and seems to lack evident zimmerit - either assembly factory OR refurb (Nibelungenwerke) - application! For those interested in building a G or H Wirbel sans zimmerit (that includes ME! ), this should certainly encourage you to go forth and DO IT!

Cheers!

Bob

DragonUSA online has kit 6342 on sale but it has no zim. I already built the old Tamiya kit with no zim which I don't think was right for that kit. Didn't want to make the same mistake twice.

So if Dragon will be nice enough to add it to an order I already placed that has not shipped yet, then it will only set me back $26.45. And I could also add a Zvezda Mercedes 4500 truck for another $21. Sounds good, right?

Well if it is, then I'm very impressed. The figures inside the open turret look very good indeed, really lifelike.

Nope is a real wartime photo. Its in the Nuts and Bolts (Volume 13) Book that I have.

Yeah.... Staring at it for a while more leads me to agree - it does seem to be a very clear pic of a carefully posed real Wirbel and crew, after all. The guys do look pretty realistic, and the hedges look darned near to perfectly in-scale, too!

So score TWO! Wirbels sans zimm!

Bob

The upper photo is a tank rebuilt on an Ausf G hull, so the lack of Zimmerit is no surprise. Note the solid spokes on the drive sprocket (the H had hollow spokes), and the earlier, bowl-shaped hubcaps on the road wheels.

Actually, Gerald, I am perhaps a little surprised that it seems to have been a nice clean G hull AND lacking zimmerit... Given as the early Wirbels were built on hulls seconded from Nibelungenwerke - where they had been sent for rebuilding (and, until SEP 1944, zimmerited if they arrived without zimm)! So this pic of a clean G Wirbel records what may have been a less-common version of a rare vehicle!

It's also perhaps even more interesting given that it looks pretty complete and original as a G hull - without obvious repairs and replacements added on before it became a Wirbel!

Cheers!

Bob

The Borden wagon definitely had Zimmerit when I examined it in around 2003. There were some interesting patterns, including a handprint, on the lower hull sides. No need to chip any of it off as there were chunks lying on the ground. A shame if the 'restoration' process removed it all.